Penalty fare for railcard out of date by 1 day

[hs3]

Hello,

My friend was stopped at Stansted Airport and found that their railcard was out of date by 1 day. They were given a £50 penalty fare, which they paid on the spot, and were told by the member of staff that if they buy a new railcard and appeal they would have a good chance of succeeding.

Does appealing sound like a sensible course of action, and if so what justification should be given?

No other trips were undertaken with the expired railcard so there isn't the risk of flagging further invalid journeys.

 

[SuspectUsual]

There’s no harm in appealing, but honestly I’d be surprised if the appeal succeeded and it might be that they were told this to appease them at the time. This is just the sort of things penalty fares were introduced for

 

[methecooldude]

Does appealing sound like a sensible course of action, and if so what justification should be given?

I don't see any reason that an appeal would succeed prima facie.

 

[AlterEgo]

No chance of a successful appeal on that basis; the PF was issued for a valid reason. If you post a copy of the notice we can see if it was filled out in accordance with the regulations.

 

[furlong]

They were given a £50 penalty fare, which they paid on the spot, and were told by the member of staff that if they buy a new railcard and appeal they would have a good chance of succeeding.

Absolutely appeal saying exactly this that you were told, assuming the new railcard was bought immediately so there is an argument that any gap in validity was at most a few hours (and no gain from shifting the expiry date).

 

[Hadders]

You are entitled to appeal but ordinarily I would not expect an appeal to succeed. My view is that the member of staff has probably just said what they did about the appeal as a conflict avoidance technique. For the avoidance of doubt I'm not suggesting there was any conflict (actual or threatened) in this case but suggesting an appeal is a well known way of making sure something doesn't kick off in what can be, in many cases, a stressful and confrontational situation.

 

[furlong]

However if you exhaust your rights of appeal without success (to an "independent" body) you might still have a complaint against the train company if you feel their employee mislead you as to the appeals process (or worse) and therefore seek a discretionary refund from the train company on that basis. Authorised Collectors of Penalty Fares have no business speculating as to the result of a potential appeal. If they truly believe the Penalty Fare ought to be refunded on appeal, then they should use their own discretion not to issue it in the first place and avoid wasting everyone's time!

 

[LAX54]

Absolutely appeal saying exactly this that you were told, assuming the new railcard was bought immediately so there is an argument that any gap in validity was at most a few hours (and no gain from shifting the expiry date).

But this is a second hand report, the person posting is not the person involved, so the words used in the post are probably not exactly what was said at the time, could have been a suggestion to appeal, and there is a chance it may succeed, may not have said good chance, its like chinese whispers, the sentence changes with each person

 

[styles]

What would even be the point of issuing penalties fares, allowing them on appeal for slip ups like this, and advising people issuing penalty fares to give out this advice?

All it would serve to do is cost the railway money, in administration, and frustrate a passenger who would end up stressed out and temporarily out of pocket.

You can certainly try appealing, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. That staff member shouldn't really have said what they said, but even they have avoided saying the appeal will definitely succeed so not sure you'd have a claim there either.

 

[AlterEgo]

Staff will often say stuff like this to take the sting out of that £50 you’ll have to pay. It’s not binding, has no impact on the validity of the penalty fare or any appeal, and cannot be relied on.

The staff are issuing the penalty fare for a reason. If they think it’ll be overturned on appeal they shouldn’t be issuing one in the first place.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you forget a valid railcard then, if you subsequently present it, you will often have the Penalty Fare rescinded on appeal. So I can see why the staff member would suggest such a thing. You can also see why a Penalty Fare has to be issued in these circumstances.

I know that in this case a valid railcard wasn't 'forgotten', it was that it had been forgotten to be renewed.

I would say to the OP that, if they have now renewed the railcard, they should appeal. There is nothing to lose now that the Penalty Fare has been paid, but do also bear in mind that the first two appeal stages are not independent. If they haven't renewed the railcard, maybe just let it lie. In some ways it is for the best they got caught on the first day; if they'd been caught having used the railcard for several weeks in blissful ignorance then the outcome would be much more expensive.

I think more people should fully avail themselves of the appeal mechanisms tbh.

 

[WesternLancer]

There is nothing to lose now that the Penalty Fare has been paid, but do also bear in mind that the first two appeal stages are not independent.

Well, I think technically they are independent - in the sense that those 2 stages are handled by a body (and external company) independent of the rail company that issued the Penalty Fare are they not?

We just see that said independent company seems to only go through the motions and seemingly rejects lots of appeals at those stages, or maybe even most for them - but without seeing any statistics on the success rate of appeals at the various parts of the 3 stage process (I've not looked for them I mean) it's hard to know what your statistical probability of success is.

But I don't think the railway company that issued the Penalty fare is controlling the process of the Appeal at stage 1 and 2 are they?

For this case FWIW I don't think an appeal is going to be successful. But that is not a reason not to make an Appeal if you have the time to do so.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well, I think technically they are independent - in the sense that those 2 stages are handled by a body (and external company) independent of the rail company that issued the Penalty Fare are they not?

The word technically does a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence!

IPFAS was, until 2018, wholly owned by the Go-Ahead Group. Whilst it was nominally split out from Go-Ahead as part of the 2018 changes to Penalty Fare rules, it has largely the same management in place as before.

IRCAS is owned by the ITAL Group, whose primary revenue stream is through the sale of revenue protection software and data analytics, including a bespoke case management system for the prosecution of fare evasion cases.

I'm not sure either can be considered functionally independent. And that's before we consider the simple fact that he who pays the piper calls the tune, and these appeals services are funded by the TOCs.

 

[Hadders]

There is nothing stopping someone from appealing:

- it buys a bit more time to pay the money if the appeal is rejected
- it puts the train comoany to a bit of 'inconvenience' in having to consider the appeal!
- you might strike lucky and the appeal succeed

I recently got a parking ticket. I was certain I'd paid the correct fee but on closer inspection realised I'd entered the wrong location code into the parking app. I'd paid to park a few streets away! I appealed, writing a short concise letter(!), expecting ot to get rejected, but to my surprise the appeal was allowed.

So, I'd encourage anyone to appeal, but to be realistic about the chances of success.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For this case FWIW I don't think an appeal is going to be successful. But that is not a reason not to make an Appeal if you have the time to do so.

I'd agree. I wouldn't expect an appeal to be successful. The OP's friend did not have a railcard and so the issuing of a Penalty Fare was appropriate.

So, I'd encourage anyone to appeal, but to be realistic about the chances of success.

Absolutely. In this case I'm 99% sure that the appeals would be rejected but there's always the 1% chance that it won't be.

There's also the mischief factor in making them work for their money...

 

[WesternLancer]

The word technically does a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence!

IPFAS was, until 2018, wholly owned by the Go-Ahead Group. Whilst it was nominally split out from Go-Ahead as part of the 2018 changes to Penalty Fare rules, it has largely the same management in place as before.

IRCAS is owned by the ITAL Group, whose primary revenue stream is through the sale of revenue protection software and data analytics, including a bespoke case management system for the prosecution of fare evasion cases.

I'm not sure either can be considered functionally independent. And that's before we consider the simple fact that he who pays the piper calls the tune, and these appeals services are funded by the TOCs.

Thanks for this - important points that I was not fully aware of.