Penalty fare reminder

[DDad]

My 12 year old daughter (and friend) travelled from Widnes station to Warrington but did not get her "promise to pay" print out. At Warrington she was stopped and given a "PENALTY FARE" of £20 and not allowed to pay. She was unclear on the procedure. I have explained this on appeal but have been unsuccessful. Has anybody any ideas how i can get Penalty services to drop the penalty? Seems harsh for someone of her age.

 

[Nova1]

It might feel harsh but you’ve still got to have a valid ticket when travelling on train services.

You’ve been given an easy out on this one - pay the £20 penalty fare and the issue goes away forever. If you continue to ask for it to be dropped they may choose to prosecute instead.

 

[furlong]

You have 3 appeals. Use all 3. In practice, the 3rd one is more independent than the other 2.
Read the appeal criteria. Set out your argument within those terms. ('Promise to pay' remains a bit of a grey area in terms of Penalty Fares so appeal on multiple grounds if you can.)

 

[ainsworth74]

You’ve been given an easy out on this one - pay the £20 penalty fare and the issue goes away forever. If you continue to ask for it to be dropped they may choose to prosecute instead.

Once the PF has been appealed to the appeal body and a decision has been made then prosecution is blocked (though I think it would be unusual for a TOC to prosecute a twelve year old anyway!). Regulation 11 of The Railway (Penalty Fare) Regulations 2018 refers. It sounds like this is the current position that the OP has completed the first stage of the appeal process?

That being said I think the OP is going to be struggling to get this overturned as it sounds like it's probably bang to rights. Though as @furlong suggests there's no harm is using every appeal avenue that you've got.

 

[gray1404]

Go to stage 2 of the appeal. When it comes to stage 3 the matter is considered by an independent panel you could offer the child's age in mitigation. Anyway if it was me I would simply ignore it as I know there is no way they will take 12 year old to court on this matter and are statute barred anyway now you have appealed.

However just to be clear my advice here is to go to stage 2 and then stage 3 of the appeal process.

 

[Merseysider]

I know there is no way they will take 12 year old to court

It’s Northern. Don’t put it past them.

 

[yorkie]

My 12 year old daughter (and friend) travelled from Widnes station to Warrington but did not get her "promise to pay" print out. At Warrington she was stopped and given a "PENALTY FARE" of £20 and not allowed to pay. She was unclear on the procedure. I have explained this on appeal but have been unsuccessful. Has anybody any ideas how i can get Penalty services to drop the penalty? Seems harsh for someone of her age.

If she was unable to buy the ticket using her chosen payment method at Widnes, such as if she was paying by cash and there was no ticket office open and if the machines do not accept cash, a Penalty Fare cannot be charged.

Northern want people to get a "promise to pay" from the machines but this isn't legally enforceable and promise to pay coupons are not part of the Penalty Fare legislation (unless it changed since I last looked).

It might feel harsh but you’ve still got to have a valid ticket when travelling on train services.

But have we established the passenger was able to purchase a valid ticket at their origin station yet?

You’ve been given an easy out on this one - pay the £20 penalty fare and the issue goes away forever. If you continue to ask for it to be dropped they may choose to prosecute instead.

They are not realistically going to be able to prosecute a 12 year old, though I agree that....

It’s Northern. Don’t put it past them.

...they are an atrocious company so they might give it a try, but I am confident it would not succeed.

 

[Rob Gibson]

If she was unable to buy the ticket using her chosen payment method at Widnes, such as if she was paying by cash and there was no ticket office open and if the machines do not accept cash, a Penalty Fare cannot be charged.

Northern want people to get a "promise to pay" from the machines but this isn't legally enforceable and promise to pay coupons are not part of the Penalty Fare legislation (unless it changed since I last looked).

But have we established the passenger was able to purchase a valid ticket at their origin station yet?

They are not realistically going to be able to prosecute a 12 year old, though I agree that....

...they are an atrocious company so they might give it a try, but I am confident it would not succeed.

The Promise to Pay coupon proves where the journey started, without that the assumption will be they’ve made a longer journey. If they’re old enough to travel alone they need to understand the importance of buying a ticket or PtoP.

 

[yorkie]

The Promise to Pay coupon proves where the journey started, without that the assumption will be they’ve made a longer journey.

There is no contractual or legal requirement for a passenger to obtain a Promise to Pay.

An accusation that a passenger made a longer journey without evidence would be inappropriate. Do you have evidence that Northern are engaging in such practice? If so, please contact me separately as I would find that very concerning.

If they’re old enough to travel alone they need to understand the importance of buying a ticket or PtoP.

A ticket needs to be purchased at the first opportunity but do you know whether or not there was an opportunity at the passengers' origin station?

Can you point me to anywhere in the National Rail Conditions of Travel or the Penalty Fare legislation that requires a passenger to obtain a promise to pay coupon?

 

[omnicity4659]

There is no contractual or legal requirement for a passenger to obtain a Promise to Pay.

An accusation that a passenger made a longer journey without evidence would be inappropriate. Do you have evidence that Northern are engaging in such practice? If so, please contact me separately as I would find that very concerning.

A ticket needs to be purchased at the first opportunity but do you know whether or not there was an opportunity at the passengers' origin station?

Can you point me to anywhere in the National Rail Conditions of Travel or the Penalty Fare legislation that requires a passenger to obtain a promise to pay coupon?

Going off-topic slightly, but some stations on the Northern network (an example being Cramlington) no longer have the options to dispense Promise to Pay coupons anywhere on the ticket vending machine, even through trying to purchase a normal ticket and aborting the card payment.

 

[Nova1]

I mean if you're disputing it, the promise to pay thing is almost irrelevant (As not covered by legislation or bylaws), if the station the journey started at had ticket issuing facilities (and these were functioning and accepting usual methods of payment) is more relevant.

 

[Haywain]

There is no contractual or legal requirement for a passenger to obtain a Promise to Pay.

There is now a clear reference to PtP in the new NRCoT.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is now a clear reference to PtP in the new NRCoT.

There is, but there wasn’t when the OP’s issue occurred.

 

[robbeech]

Going off-topic slightly, but some stations on the Northern network (an example being Cramlington) no longer have the options to dispense Promise to Pay coupons anywhere on the ticket vending machine, even through trying to purchase a normal ticket and aborting the card payment.

They changed this so you had to go through the entire process of trying to buy a ticket and then it allows it right at the last minute. Utter nonsense from them but entirely expected.

 

[skyhigh]

They changed this so you had to go through the entire process of trying to buy a ticket and then it allows it right at the last minute. Utter nonsense from them but entirely expected.

There's still a button on the homescreen for Promise to Pay, though you still have to enter your journey details (used for the purpose of matching up P2P issues with ticket sales). In the near future a QR code will be printed on the P2P that will automatically select the ticket you had chosen when scanned by the guard. Having to enter the details also helps to stop local youths emptying the machine of ticket stock - though I admit it is still a problem.

 

[omnicity4659]

They changed this so you had to go through the entire process of trying to buy a ticket and then it allows it right at the last minute. Utter nonsense from them but entirely expected.

There's still a button on the homescreen for Promise to Pay, though you still have to enter your journey details (used for the purpose of matching up P2P issues with ticket sales). In the near future a QR code will be printed on the P2P that will automatically select the ticket you had chosen when scanned by the guard. Having to enter the details also helps to stop local youths emptying the machine of ticket stock - though I admit it is still a problem.

These both sound like the setup that was on the machine I use before the change about a month ago, since then there is no PtP button on the homescreen or an option for a PtP when ordering a ticket the usual way. Other surrounding stations still have the option for PtP via the homescreen button.

 

[skyhigh]

These both sound like the setup that was on the machine I use before the change about a month ago, since then there is no PtP button on the homescreen or an option for a PtP when ordering a ticket the usual way. Other surrounding stations still have the option for PtP via the homescreen button.

Depends if it's a station with ticket office or another machine that accepts cash, in which case the option isn't available. If neither are in place the machine has been misconfigured.

Just double checked on a card only machine at a station with no ticket office and it works as expected. Promise to pay button on the homescreen, confirm you want to pay cash, select ticket, confirm choice and number of passengers, second confirmation you are getting a promise to pay, then print coupon. That seems logical to me?

 

[robbeech]

Ah yes @skyhigh is correct here I remember that ‘feature’ now. If there’s a staffed ticket office you won’t be able to obtain one during the PLANNED opening hours of the ticket office.

Of course, if the ticket office is closed one day due to staff illness (rife at the moment in some areas) then the machines are not updated to reflect this because it’s too much effort.

Similarly if a ticket office permanently changes is opening hours, or indeed closes fully I suspect it will never be changed until someone forced them to. In the meantime of course there could have been several PFs wrongly issued.

None of this fits in with the guidelines in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement nor with Northern’s own “customer promise” whereby they allow purchase on train should the queue be greater than 5 minutes.

It’s all about not putting in enough effort because increasing effort it reduces penalty fare revenue.

 

[Fokx]

I notice nobody has actually bothered to ask the OP when his daughter actually travelled?

If it was between the hours of 7am and 2.25pm on Monday to Saturday, the penalty fare has been given correctly and there is no ground for appeal as the ticket office would have been open and all fares purchasable prior to boarding.

If the child travelled outside of these times with cash for the fare (but no promise to pay), you’d expect Northern to be more lenient on the basis that a child may not be aware of how to obtain a promise to pay, but there is no expectation of this

 

[scrapy]

None of this fits in with the guidelines in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement nor with Northern’s own “customer promise” whereby they allow purchase on train should the queue be greater than 5 minutes.

The Customer Promise was originally written by Arriva (name change from passengers charter), before penalty fares were introduced on Northern. It seems to have been updated fairly recently (has the 'go do your thing' branding on the front which has only been around since last summer) and there is no mention of a five minute rule in this version currently on their website. Interestingly they seem to have gone back to it being the called passengers charter, with customer promise just a footnote.

I notice nobody has actually bothered to ask the OP when his daughter actually travelled?

If it was between the hours of 7am and 2.25pm on Monday to Saturday, the penalty fare has been given correctly and there is no ground for appeal as the ticket office would have been open and all fares purchasable prior to boarding.

If the child travelled outside of these times with cash for the fare (but no promise to pay), you’d expect Northern to be more lenient on the basis that a child may not be aware of how to obtain a promise to pay, but there is no expectation of this

We are also assuming that the OPs daughter attempted to pay with cash at Warrington (the original post doesn't actually state this). If she attempted to pay on card at her destination then the penalty was likely correctly issued.

 

[jumble]

I notice nobody has actually bothered to ask the OP when his daughter actually travelled?

If it was between the hours of 7am and 2.25pm on Monday to Saturday, the penalty fare has been given correctly and there is no ground for appeal as the ticket office would have been open and all fares purchasable prior to boarding.

If the child travelled outside of these times with cash for the fare (but no promise to pay), you’d expect Northern to be more lenient on the basis that a child may not be aware of how to obtain a promise to pay, but there is no expectation of this

How on earth can you be so confident that there was actually someone present at the ticket office the whole time between the stated times ?

 

[Fokx]

How on earth can you be so confident that there was actually someone present at the ticket office the whole time between the stated times ?

I’m more confident than not