?? Penalty Fare - Slightly bizarre?

[Cinc026]

Returning to Bristol via Victoria, I forgot to tap in at Ewell East due to being in a hurry (heavy suitcases, train due etc; not an excuse, but a reason for my oversight - for you sceptics out there, I KNEW I was travelling to barriered Victoria and realised my mistake once on the train). Once at Victoria I inconveniently discovered that my Oyster was negative, and was given a penalty fare notice which is fair enough.

I've just tried to pay it online but having had a look at the slip it says the amount due is £0.00 (should be £20), the inspector didn't take my name or my address and my date of birth is wrong. It also says the "Amount paid: £20.00", "Amount due £0.00". Does this mean the man issuing the notice messed up? I've typed the code in on the website but it won't let me progress beyond the 'amounts' page, saying the penalty is £20 but the amount owed is 0. The "Name" has been written as 'Mr Mr Fully Paid'.

Slightly confused, if anyone could clarify whether or not this essentially means that the notice I was issued is defunct I would be very grateful.

 

[Ediswan]

It looks a bit like some test data has escaped into the production system. A bit like the letters a bank sent to "Dear Rich B*****d" some year back.

 

[Cinc026]

And what exactly does that mean for me? Lol

 

[Ediswan]

And what exactly does that mean for me? Lol

No idea. But somebody who can cover that aspect will likely be along shortly.

 

[najaB]

Slightly confused, if anyone could clarify whether or not this essentially means that the notice I was issued is defunct I would be very grateful.

If you have official documentation that says £0 is due, and can show that you attempted to pay £0 as requested then you've done all you can do. I'd say you got away lucky.

 

[Cinc026]

Alternatively I could just send a cheque couldn't I?

 

[Quakkerillo]

I would take print screens of the website, so you have proof of what you're seeing.

 

[Cinc026]

Yep, have done that and saved into a document. It won't let me progress beyond the amounts page - I can't change the payment details and the next button is greyed out. Have attached the requisite files

 

[najaB]

Alternatively I could just send a cheque couldn't I?

If you have a chequebook, then yes.

 

[Jonfun]

If you have to type the notice number in on the website in order to pay it, have you double checked you haven't miskeyed the number?

 

[Cinc026]

Yes have attempted multiple times lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would contact them - it sounds like an error, and you would not want it to progress to anything more serious. It's clearly due and they've messed up entering it.

 

[andywandy]

Ring them up on Monday, if they tell you nothing is due then ask for it in writing in my opinion, so you have proof if you end up with a court summons down the line!

 

[Cinc026]

I'm sure there will be a simple resolution. I'll ring them as soon as possible and try to sort something out. What a farce :roll:

Hopefully this nonsense will be sorted out long before a court summons would ever be necessary. The fare is 3 quid or something, I offered to pay it and the ticket inspector refused. My dad has also recently been massively overcharged on his Oyster for usually straightforward fares across London (he works around Liverpool Street and makes the same journey daily).

To incite a healthy debate, why am I required to pay £20 for simple human oversight for a fare that costs roughly £3 regularly? This just seems like extortion to me, but given how much you folks love the railway I'm sure you have some valid explanations to provide Not really bothered about the £20, just the irrational morality behind it. (Yes, I'm ****ed off, especially when some employees are incapable of doing their damn jobs [entering simple details into a machine, he asked for my ****ing bank card which I happily provided and yet he was still unable to perform what is a menial and basic task], making my life more difficult and inconvenient than it needs to be during what is a hectic and formative exam period for me personally.)

Obviously not definitive extortion, but effective extortion. It's easier to do when the law is on your side, in a similar vein to when bouncers confiscate drugs and then give them to their in-house dealers to sell

To clarify:

- A £20 fine for a ~£3 journey makes no sense when the terminus is barriered and I offer to cover the cost, particularly when the only fault was a negative oyster card (easily redeemable since the money I put back onto the card goes straight back into circulation, covering both said fare and future fares) [Just a little bonus for you lot though ey ]

- I am annoyed at the incompetence of staff.

- I am annoyed at the further inconvenience I have to endure as a result of said staff's incompetence.


extortion extortion extortion against honest customers! No wonder laymen aren't too keen on authority

I know I'm being petulant but christ, I really do despair at times for the total lack of humanity and understanding that is often displayed by adults in positions of relative authority. There is a difference between doing a job, and doing a job well.

 

[MikeWh]

My dad has also recently been massively overcharged on his Oyster for usually straightforward fares across London (he works around Liverpool Street and makes the same journey daily).

Can you PM me your Dad's journey and where near Liverpool Street he works. It's possible that I might be able to suggest a cheaper alternative.

 

[Cinc026]

He works at RPC - closer to Tower Hill; my error.

 

[MikeWh]

He works at RPC - closer to Tower Hill; my error.

Don't know what RPC is, sorry.

My thought was to avoid the Underground travelling Ewell East - West Croydon - Shoreditch High Street. Is Shadwell any good for Tower Hill? That would also avoid zone 1.

 

[Panda]

Since the origin station, destination station and dates all line up on the website, the RPI didn't take your details, I'm guessing he screwed it up, rather than it being test data or incorrect details being entered (the data he had, is all there).

 

[jkdd77]

If the inspector took neither payment nor name nor address nor (successfully) recorded card details then I'm not sure how it could realistically be traced back to the OP.

In addition, it sounds like they (presumably TfL) think it was paid at the time, even though it wasn't, so they probably won't even seek to trace or chase it.

Furthermore, if the PF notice claims the amount due is "£0", then it is arguably invalid due to failure to comply with statutory requirements requiring that the amount due be correctly stated on the notice, such that the OP does not actually owe anything actually beyond the 'maximum fare' he/ she was presumably charged automatically when attempting to touch out.

Assuming my understanding is correct, were I in the OP's position, I would be tempted to take screenshots of the online statement and then to take no further action- better to let sleeping bears lie and all that.

This is not entirely risk-free, but, IMO, assuming I have understood the OP correctly, the risk of non-payment coming back to bite the OP is very low given the extraordinary and specific circumstances stated.

 

[najaB]

To incite a healthy debate, why am I required to pay £20 for simple human oversight for a fare that costs roughly £3 regularly?

If the consequence of 'simple human oversight' was being allowed to pay just the fare due or being waved on you way with a cheery smile every time, it wouldn't be long until everyone was making such 'mistakes'. On the other hand, if the consequence was always a trip to Court then the legal system would collapse under the strain.

The Penalty Fare is a middle ground - high enough to discourage most people from trying to cheat the system, but not so punitive or as cumbersome to implement as prosecutions. Nor as much of an impact on the passenger's life - they can pay the fare and move on without having to worry about it coming back to haunt them later.

 

[CheesyChips]

If the consequence of 'simple human oversight' was being allowed to pay just the fare due or being waved on you way with a cheery smile every time, it wouldn't be long until everyone was making such 'mistakes'. On the other hand, if the consequence was always a trip to Court then the legal system would collapse under the strain.

The Penalty Fare is a middle ground - high enough to discourage most people from trying to cheat the system, but not so punitive or as cumbersome to implement as prosecutions. Nor as much of an impact on the passenger's life - they can pay the fare and move on without having to worry about it coming back to haunt them later.

I've always thought that a more reasonable middle ground could be a system through which if you were found to be in a position where a penalty fare was due more than twice in a 12 month period then an actual penalty would become due. This couldn't be hard to do given that details are recorded.

If penalty fares are there to genuinely cover errors on the part of the passenger then those trying to game the system could only make a "mistake" twice a year before the actual penalty kicks in. Like a three strikes rule maybe.

This would then afford the benefit of the doubt to people who genuinely messed their ticketing up.

Of course there are holes in the concept, but is it working anywhere near ok as it is now?

TL DR

This is your third mistake this year sir, we'll have to ask you for some cash now.

 

[island]

So fare evaders just need to come up with a new fake name and address every other time they're caught?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I doubt that would work for anything other than the short term; their faces would become known, they could be traced back through CCTV, their images would be circulated as known repeat offenders.

A serial offender trying that would be caught relatively quickly.

 

[island]

Really?

 

[tony6499]

If it was the same offender on the same line doing the same thing he would be nabbed pretty quickly, word gets round quick in the mess room who to look out for.

If it was over a far larger area then the chances of a repeat offender being ID'd would be pretty slim unless he slipped up with someone who remembered them.

 

[cuccir]

So fare evaders just need to come up with a new fake name and address every other time they're caught?

Is there any difference in that to the current scheme, though, other than the fact that someone has to invent a new id each time at the moment?

Frankly I can see both sides. Threats of prosecution and/or new tickets costing hundreds of pounds seem harsh when people have made simple mistakes, but we all know that many fare evaders rely on the fact that the network operates only occasional ticket checks.

The fact is that I can imagine it's pretty difficult to tell the difference between someone who has 'forgot' to tap in once and someone who regularly doubles-up at barriers, reuses tickets, tries to blag their way through, etc. All that said, there are problems - it's not a level playing field, rules are not well published and practice is not constant across the network

 

[miami]

If it was the same offender on the same line doing the same thing he would be nabbed pretty quickly, word gets round quick in the mess room who to look out for.

If it was over a far larger area then the chances of a repeat offender being ID'd would be pretty slim unless he slipped up with someone who remembered them.

You could still take their details and record the occurrence, but then you'd give them "points" on their "license", fewer points for having a ticket but been on the wrong train (advanced tickets etc) or forgetting to tap out, more for shadier things, and the more the potential financial gain, the more points (like getting more points for doing 90 on the motorway than 80)

 

[CheesyChips]

A points system would require diligence and therefore probably not suitable for a TOC.

 

[Antman]

So fare evaders just need to come up with a new fake name and address every other time they're caught?

Well yes, and are they really likely to get caught that often?

Remember the bloke from Stonegate who got away with it for years, I wonder how many more like him there are?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Returning to Bristol via Victoria, I forgot to tap in at Ewell East due to being in a hurry (heavy suitcases, train due etc; not an excuse, but a reason for my oversight - for you sceptics out there, I KNEW I was travelling to barriered Victoria and realised my mistake once on the train). Once at Victoria I inconveniently discovered that my Oyster was negative, and was given a penalty fare notice which is fair enough.

I've just tried to pay it online but having had a look at the slip it says the amount due is £0.00 (should be £20), the inspector didn't take my name or my address and my date of birth is wrong. It also says the "Amount paid: £20.00", "Amount due £0.00". Does this mean the man issuing the notice messed up? I've typed the code in on the website but it won't let me progress beyond the 'amounts' page, saying the penalty is £20 but the amount owed is 0. The "Name" has been written as 'Mr Mr Fully Paid'.

Slightly confused, if anyone could clarify whether or not this essentially means that the notice I was issued is defunct I would be very grateful.

Forget about it, if you're riddled with guilt put £20 in a charity box

 

[MrPIC]

- I am annoyed at the incompetence of staff.

- I am annoyed at the further inconvenience I have to endure as a result of said staff's incompetence.

Are you not also incompetent for not tapping in? At the end of the day none of this would have happened if you had remembered to tap in. YOU were in the wrong, mistake or not.