Penalty Fares

[Mutant Lemming]

Do any heritage lines operate a penalty fare system ?

 

[trentside]

Do any heritage lines operate a penalty fare system ?

I wouldn't have thought so. I'd imagine anyone found without a ticket would be asked to pay and if they refused, to leave the train. I'd imagine this would be an odd set of circumstances, but you never know with the public...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Nope. At least, not as far as I know. My railway has TTI's on nearly every train who check and sell tickets. If someone refuses to buy - I've never heard of that happening - then I imagine they would be asked to leave the train at the next station.

 

[scotsman]

No, but I've come across the sort of passengers who penalty fares were created for!

 

[yorkie]

No, but I've come across the sort of passengers who penalty fares were created for!

I'm sure heritage railways come across that sort of passenger (people who make a mistake) all the time! If they are treated harshly they will never return.

"A penalty fare is simply a charge that [a TOC] is allowed to make under the Penalty Fare Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare. " - NXEA

Penalty Fares are intended as a means of charging people a disproportionately high amount of money when they make a mistake, the idea being people will be more careful not to make mistakes.

No-one issued with a PF is being accused of any wrongdoing.

"‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter. It is a criminal offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders under criminal law." - NXEA

I doubt that a heritage operator would be successful in an application to create a PF scheme and I also doubt that they would try. It would be utterly foolish and ridiculous and I would certainly boycott such a heritage railway and am sure many others would choose not to visit them either.

 

[Flamingo]

putting the conditions and legislation in place for a PF scheme is quite long-winded and takes several years, I believe.

 

[Jonfun]

I agree it's unlikely a heritage PF scheme will ever operate. The closest on the railway I volunteer at is more akin to a NR CoC "Buy Before You Board" policy with regards to some discounted tickets, although even that rarely gets enforced, if at all. Yes, you do come across passengers who for whatever reason fail to pay their fare or try to dodge it - there's always the option of taking name and address so they can be billed later, asked to leave the train, or, in truly exceptional circumstances, have them removed from the train although I personally haven't been in a situation where that was required.

As has been said, it would be daft to even suggest implementing a PF scheme - aside from the fact many heritage stations are unstaffed anyway, it would take longer for the Ticket Inspector/Guard to do and be worse PR than selling a ticket.

Although, you'd think people travelling on heritage railways would want to pay the fares, in order that railway preservation carries on for the future. Unfortunately a small minority don't, which I always find quite disappointing.

 

[scotsman]

I'm sure heritage railways come across that sort of passenger (people who make a mistake) all the time! If they are treated harshly they will never return.

Had there been a PF or buy before you board policy, I'd have issued one! However, there isn't one, but I could tell from their tone, in one case, and their actions, in another, gave away that they were hoping no one would check...

Now, I know that's technically what qualifies for a prosecution on the mainline, but don't PFs tend to get issued in many of these cases - despite the guidance you've quoted form NXEA

I doubt that a heritage operator would be successful in an application to create a PF scheme and I also doubt that they would try. It would be utterly foolish and ridiculous and I would certainly boycott such a heritage railway and am sure many others would choose not to visit them either

It would be insanity if anyone tried it.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Penalty Fares are not appropriate for heritage railways in any way. I have never known someone refuse to pay, but if they did, then appropriate steps would be taken. We need to keep our customers, not drive them away!

I have heard of people being asked to leave trains, but I have never had to do it, or be involved in it, in my 4 years working.

 

[b0b]

Penalty Fares are intended as a means of charging people a disproportionately high amount of money when they make a mistake, the idea being people will be more careful not to make mistakes

at the risk of taking the thread off-topic; i don't agree with that statement:-

"Penalty fares are intended as a cheap way to collect extra revenue from law abiding people who are unintentionally caught out by circumstance, and from professional fare evaders, in order to offset the revenue lost to fare evasion.", would be my definition

 

[Flamingo]

Could I also add "and as a deterrent to the pay-when-challenged type of passengers*" (*as I'm not allowed call them fare-evaders).

 

[b0b]

Could I also add "and as a deterrent to the pay-when-challenged type of passengers*" (*as I'm not allowed call them fare-evaders).

i would argue that group of users are part of the "professional fare evader" type, along with the poeple that don't pay but expect to be caught so infrequently that its worth it.

 

[Flamingo]

i would argue that group of users are part of the "professional fare evader" type, along with the poeple that don't pay but expect to be caught so infrequently that its worth it.

Unfortunately, they see themselves as "honest", and think that it's the railways problem if they don't get challenged.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

If certain Heritage lines decide to operate commuter services (the Princes Risborough - Chinnor line for instance has potential there) or school services (like the RH&DR did) then that could be a reason for a heritage line to have a deterrent for potential fare evaders. Would they be allowed to have a different approach to the commuter service against the leisure service though ?

 

[LexyBoy]

I doubt that a heritage operator would be successful in an application to create a PF scheme and I also doubt that they would try.

I agree that it would be ridiculous for any heritage railway to try and introduce a PF scheme (I'd imagine most involved would be against them anyway).

However, I can't see why it would be difficult to do. It would follow the same system as Standard Fares on buses and the nationwide penalty fare (not Penalty Fare) system on the railway - only sell a more expensive ticket on-board. If the idea were to gently encourage passengers to buy before boarding, it need only be a pound or two more.

As for Penalty Fares being for those who have made a mistake, I think I'd prefer it being a low-cost deterrent to casual fare evasion (by making it more expensive to pay the odd PF than to buy a ticket every time). Not buying a ticket where there is an opportunity to do so isn't a 'mistake' - getting the wrong train with an AP ticket is (or can be), as is getting a peak time train on an off-peak ticket, or travelling off-route. I know these last two won't get you a PF (yet), but surely they are just the sort of 'mistake' which someone might make?

 

[Flamingo]

It requires special legislation, which would be time-consuming and expensive.

I would reckon that the cost of putting in a penalty-fare system would be prohibitive to any heritage line, and the returns from it would not cover the cost of it's implementation.

 

[12CSVT]

Slightly off topic, do the North Yorkshire Moors railway have any legal powers if anybody attempted to use a National Rail ticket on one of their Battersby / Grosmont - Whitby services.

 

[yorkie]

Slightly off topic, do the North Yorkshire Moors railway have any legal powers if anybody attempted to use a National Rail ticket on one of their Battersby / Grosmont - Whitby services.

Given that the trains to Whitby often appear in the NRT and on live departure boards, I am unsure what they can do if someone declined to pay, other than ask them to leave at the next station (which may be their destination anyway). I know one TTI who said he'd accept them.

In 2006 we had problems using a ticket that was advertised as being valid on all NYMR services, with a member of NYMR staff claiming that it was not valid between Grosmont & Whitby, however we showed the leaflet clearly showing it was valid and he relented.

Like the real railway, preserved railway staff can be very variable. Many are a great credit to the industry, while some appear to think it's their job to put passengers off and ensure they don't return.

 

[Flamingo]

some appear to think it's their job to put passengers off and ensure they don't return.

Whereas everybody knows that's MY job

 

[scotsman]

While some appear to think it's their job to put passengers off and ensure they don't return.

I know the type...