Pending prosecution

[andy1202]

Hi
I boarded a train at Redruth to Truro, I had a return from Camborne to Truro but caught at Redruth, closer to Truro

Whilst in the train my plan changed and I needed to go to St Austell
As we left Truro the revenue inspector with the guard came through the carriage. I started to look for my bank card. I began panicking because I had lost it. The guard said he would return.

When he did I was still in a panic about bank card which I was going to pay with. I started getting change together from pockets. I was about 80p short.
The guard and inspector went to the end of carriage for a chat.

Meanwhile a lady sitting by me said I'll tell you what I'll give you a quid for one of your chocolates bars, I had them on the table, to which I agreed.

I went to the inspector and guard and offered them the monies. The guard said let's have a look at that, and took £1 from me and walked off, the train then arrived in St Austell.

I alighted with the inspector who told me I'm now recording body cam, only now???

I had found extra change in my pocket and said direct to his camera, I am trying to pay you for a ticket, you are refusing to take it.

I had to then leave. I didn't realise the guard had stolen my money until after when I thought back to the incident.

A hearing was scheduled that I couldn't attend on the 3/10/22

I asked the prosecutor who phoned me to transfer the case to my local court, she said we don't do that we deal with them here. I believe transfer of cases is allowed and shall make an application.

I wish the cctv from the train and body cam to be produced before the court given that they are mentioned as available in the inspectors statement along with the cctv reference.

I am now told that these have been deleted as only kept for 3 months, despite the charge being laid after the 3 months.

Surely if they are relied upon in statements and specifically mentioned then they must be available for the court??
Advice welcome

Edited to correct grammar and spelling

 

[Kilopylae]

Can you tell us what you have been charged with?

 

[andy1202]

i can it is traveling on a railway with intent to avoid payment. That one not the other one. Know that's not the right wording but I'm out at the minute

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2022 ==

S5.3a railways act 1989 travel on the railway without having previously paid the correct rail fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2022 ==

Incidentally in the email The prosecutions manager sent me he says this

"You could have purchased a ticket from St Austell station for the journey you had just made before exiting the station."
Really.... previously when my card wouldn't work prior to getting a train a few years ago I was confronted by an inspector. I said I was going to buy a return at my destination to which I was told no can't do that...

I think I shall retain this email so if I am in this situation again I can provide it. However thought it was interesting comment and wondered if there are any views on this?,? As an aside to my main issue, my prosecution on the 7/11

Thank you all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2022 ==

I am applying to transfer the case to my local court under section 27A Magistrates Court act 1980.

I don't believe leaving the case at Plymouth for the convenience of the prosecution is a just or lawful reason to refuse, despite the prosecutor telling me on the phone, "oh we don't transfer these cases we deal with them at Plymouth. "

 

[JBuchananGB]

There is a lot you haven't explained, and a lot of correspondence opportunities before you woud have reached the position that a court hearing was set for 3 October. Maybe you should start at the beginning. What was the date of travel? Why did you try to travel from Redruth to St. Austell with a ticket from Camborne to Truro? How many bags and pockets did you have that you couldn't find your bank card, then you couldn't find enough cash, then you could find enough cash?
What letters did you receive from the railway, and what replies did you send them?

 

[AlterEgo]

Just to clarify, this is GWR, right?

It's extremely unusual for them to prosecute for these matters. In fact, by nature they almost always settle and are by far the easiest TOC to deal with if you have committed a ticket irregularity.

Please do as @JBuchananGB suggests and list the *entire* sequence of events, along with (redacted) copies of all correspondence, as this is an unusual case and it is clear we don't have the full story here.

 

[furlong]

Just to clarify, this is GWR, right?
It's extremely unusual for them to prosecute for these matters. In fact, by nature they almost always settle and are by far the easiest TOC to deal with if you have committed a ticket irregularity.

Should qualify that as referring to people who actively engage with the company to make amends.

Anyone who reads the local press in the region will be aware of the large number of successful prosecutions instigated by GWR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

I am applying to transfer the case to my local court under section 27A Magistrates Court act 1980.
I don't believe leaving the case at Plymouth for the convenience of the prosecution is a just or lawful reason to refuse, despite the prosecutor telling me on the phone, "oh we don't transfer these cases we deal with them at Plymouth. "

Wouldn't "the consolidation of cases to be conducted by the same prosecutor" in the directions lawfully allow for prosecution convenience?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

S5.3a railways act 1989 travel on the railway without having previously paid the correct rail fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

"You could have purchased a ticket from St Austell station for the journey you had just made before exiting the station."

The offence uses the word "previously". Assuming there was an opportunity to buy a ticket before travelling, buying it instead afterwards would be strictly irrelevant in terms of the offence, though it might be viewed as mitigation and reduce the likelihood of a prosecution actually being pursued.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

An offence would happen at one point in time and could not be undone by something that happens afterwards.

Intent is also an essential requirement.
What caused your plans to change? Consider how you might be able to prove this to someone who suggests it was just a made-up excuse. (If accepted, that could narrow the time window for an alleged offence, but I doubt it would make it disappear.)
Not offering sufficient money might also be viewed as demonstrating an intention not to pay the correct fare. And once again, a momentary intent would be sufficient to complete an offence and later actions wouldn't undo that.

 

[skyhigh]

Please do as @JBuchananGB suggests and list the *entire* sequence of events, along with (redacted) copies of all correspondence, as this is an unusual case and it is clear we don't have the full story here.

For what it's worth, their profile picture is this letter:

 

[andy1202]

There is a lot you haven't explained, and a lot of correspondence opportunities before you woud have reached the position that a court hearing was set for 3 October. Maybe you should start at the beginning. What was the date of travel? Why did you try to travel from Redruth to St. Austell with a ticket from Camborne to Truro? How many bags and pockets did you have that you couldn't find your bank card, then you couldn't find enough cash, then you could find enough cash?
What letters did you receive from the railway, and what replies did you send them?

Travel 5 April 2022
I was going to travel from Camborne as I was traveling with going to travel with a friend who bought the tickets. I had to go home before meeting the train and Redruth was then my nearest station. The ticket covered my intended journey, Redruth to Truro having been issued from Camborne to Truro.
I carry a large sports direct type bag you know the plastic type ones, in in I had a fleece, 3 pockets spare coat. 5 pockets and ripped pets into the lining and wire a coat with 3 pockets alas with holes in pockets to the lining plus 2 pockets in trousers plus my bag and a rucksack with 4 compartments so let's say 17 pockets. In addition I use my card for everything so change goes into whatever I'm wearing at the time

Due to moving around this time I gave my mother's address for mail, this eventually got to me beginning of September. Time for settlement having passed. I sent a letter in May requesting the names and addresses for service of documents regarding these employees and sent it to I believe a customer service address but did not hear back.

Given the railways representative Stole monies from Me when I held it out to pay, I always wanted to challenge this case as i had the monies to pay, after a bit of faffing about, especially due to the way I was dealt with. It is with noting that as the guard was on duty the railway is also liable for theft, corporate responsibility for the actions of their agents.

As for bank card it wasn't found and a new one was ordered a day later after searching everywhere.


So letters, one asking me to pay a fine or if court for my travel from Penryn to St Austell
Then the summons

 

[Haywain]

my travel from Penryn to St Austell

Penryn? You haven't previously mentioned Penryn - did you actually travel from there to St Austell?

And if you are suggesting that a railway employee stole £1 from you, as appears to be the case, this should be addressed completely separately although it's really rather late for that.

 

[andy1202]

Just to clarify, this is GWR, right?

It's extremely unusual for them to prosecute for these matters. In fact, by nature they almost always settle and are by far the easiest TOC to deal with if you have committed a ticket irregularity.

Please do as @JBuchananGB suggests and list the *entire* sequence of events, along with (redacted) copies of all correspondence, as this is an unusual case and it is clear we don't have the full story here.

Gwr yes

I will gladly do so when I am home tonight. As I say I have the one letter to settle, which I do not wish to do. They can do the case, happy with that
The prosecution did ring me on Monday when I asked to transfer the case however they have emailed the following..

"
... I have reviewed the Inspectors statement and looked on our data base for the body worn camera footage. Unfortunately, because the incident was almost 6 months ago, we no longer have it. Out policy is to only keep the footage for 3 months.



After reviewing the Inspector’s statement, it stated, you couldn’t provide a valid ticket for travel, and you didn’t have the means to purchase a ticket. At St Austell, while under caution, you left to catch a bus without having had a valid ticket for your journey. <b>You could have purchased a ticket from St Austell station for the journey you had just made before exiting the station.</b>



When your case was called before the court yesterday, I made an application to the court to adjourn it until the 7th November 2022 this will give you the necessary time to return your paperwork to the court, however, GWR would always like to settle matters out of court wherever possible, and after reviewing your case, I would like to make an offer to settle this matter out of court for £99.00 if payment is received no later than 4pm Friday 28th October 2022."

The inspector statement references his body cam in the summons file as though it is available. I feel it is an abuse of process to delete it, even before information laid

Hopefully the bold worked, nothing was said about purchasing a ticket at St Austell, indeed as I said before I tried this option about 7 years ago when I had an issue and was told no I will write to you to pay for a ticket, which ended up in a £99 fine rather than just the ticket cost as promised but that's old story.
I had a ticket from Redruth to Truro but my plan changed by way of a a phone call between Redruth and Truro that my friends were now going to St Austell by car from Truro. As I was later than them by adit an hour I said I would continue by train.


So sumarize

Had a ticket from Camborne to Truro
Boarded at Redruth
Plan changed on way to Truro
Guard and inspector came along 2 min after Truro
Was looking for my bank card before they arrived,
They said they would return
5 min later they did
Explained that I was looking for my card feared lost
Guard looked at ticket on my seat, the Camborne to Truro.
After about 5 min asked how much it was
Went through bags pockets linings was 80p short
Said was going pay with card let me check again
Guard and inspector walked to end of carriage
Heard bits of their conversation, guard said week you could deal with it this way.. if be happy inspector said no I'm going to issue...
( my reading of tone and conversation was that guard was happy for lower way of dealing with it inspector wanted to heavy hand it)
Lady opposite me offered me£1 for a galaxy bar I had on table
Gladly accepted
Went to end of carriage and said eight I've found enough money and held it out
Guard said keys have a look at that, took£1 from me and walked off
Inspector didn't even look at it and got started getting his notebook out
Arriving st Austell
I left him to gather my belongings
For of train with inspector
Found £1 in corner of coat lining, giving me more than enough for Truro to at Austell ticket
Inspector cautioned me
Told me camera was on,
I said good
And directly to camera said I am trying to pay you. I have the money here for a ticket you are refusing to take it although I tried a number of times
At that point I had to leave for a bus so left.

At no point did I intend to avoid payment, having tried to pay 3 times.

I try to keep linear what I'm writing but apart from being disabled my brain is a little disabled and disorganised to, medically.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

Penryn? You haven't previously mentioned Penryn - did you actually travel from there to St Austell?

And if you are suggesting that a railway employee stole £1 from you, as appears to be the case, this should be addressed completely separately although it's really rather late for that.

Penryn? You haven't previously mentioned Penryn - did you actually travel from there to St Austell?

And if you are suggesting that a railway employee stole £1 from you, as appears to be the case, this should be addressed completely separately although it's really rather late for that.

In my fluster while looking for my card and explaining that I think I lost it the inspector asked me where did I set off from today. I said Penryn, well between Falmouth and Penryn, thinking he was asking where I set off from this morning.
Not where did I get the train.
I would have thought that as the guard looked at my ticket from Camborne they would have deduced I boarded at Camborne and maybe asking me where I set off from was to jog my memory on my card

As theft is an either way offence and may be tried on indictment time limit is six years. Although I've been requesting info from gwr in August for his details which may become evident during this case, gwr hasn't responded.

 

[Haywain]

I would have thought that as the guard looked at my ticket from Camborne they would have deduced I boarded at Camborne and maybe asking me where I set off from was to jog my memory on my card

He might also have deduced that you got off at Truro, but had clear evidence to the contrary.

As theft is an either way offence and may be tried on indictment time limit is six years. Although I've been requesting info from gwr in August for his details which may become evident during this case, gwr hasn't responded.

It happened in April, but didn't bother you until August? Whatever you choose to do about it, it is a separate matter and will not result in the case against you being dropped.

 

[andy1202]

I have asked guards before when I've been in a journey to buy a ticket to a further destination and they say yes no problem.
If next time I am in a train and ask a guard their policy it may help if they say yes you can but a ticket from me?

This interaction was my first time I saw the guard since boarding. I know that disturbing a guard while they are in their cab carrying it safety critical duties you can be fine for so I've always seen it spoken to a guard if need be when they come through the carriage which is what people are advised to do.
I tried to buy the ticket like 2 min after leaving Truro it wasn't like I was hiding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

He might also have deduced that you got off at Truro, but had clear evidence to the contrary.

It happened in April, but didn't bother you until August? Whatever you choose to do about it, it is a separate matter and will not result in the case against you being dropped.

Taking money from me as I was giving it to them to pay for a ticket thereby not allowing me to pay at that time. Surely that is an act of obstruction in me buying a ticket, and despite that I then provided enough monies for a ticket 5 min after.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

What about this.

I am charged traveling from Falmouth or Penryn can't render at this point, to set Austell without a rocket intent not to pay.

I can definitively prove that I indeed did not travel from Falmouth or Penryn to St Austell on that day

Documentation definitively to prove that I did not undertake said journey as charged

 

[skyhigh]

I tried to buy the ticket like 2 min after leaving Truro it wasn't like I was hiding.

Seeing as you say your plans changed before arriving at Truro, you should have looked to buy the additional ticket then. It is your responsibility to purchase the additional ticket before you pass the point your existing ticket ceases to be valid - either by using an app, seeking out a member of train staff or if necessary leaving the train and purchasing the ticket before continuing.

Just sitting there and waiting for the guard to come round could easily be viewed as a case of 'pay when challenged'. Buy a short ticket, hope nobody asks to see it after Truro but if they do offer to pay the excess. That is further reinforced by your actions - when asked to pay you were unable to present a method of payment (initially at least).

From GWRs point of view they will be thinking - if nobody had come round, would you have gone to the ticket office at St Austell to pay your fare when you arrived?

As theft is an either way offence and may be tried on indictment time limit is six years.

To be honest I think you are going to struggle with that one. I doubt any court would be particularly interested in an alleged theft of £1 which occured in April but wasn't followed up until August (and even then still sounds like it hasn't been reported to the police). Even if you did bring a private prosecution, it would cost a lot more than £1 and wouldn't have any impact on your case.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

What you should do next depends on what final outcome you want.

If you just want the matter to go away, then going by what the prosecution have said in your post #10 above, you can pay £99 and everything will be finished.

If you want to argue your position in court, then you can also choose to do that. You might win, and be able to leave court with your point proved. Or you might lose, and have to pay a fine and costs which typically would be more than the £99 settlement you have been offered.

It depends what matters most to you - finishing the case so you don't have to worry about it any more, or having your point of view heard.

 

[Sultan]

If I'm reading this thread correctly, which isn't easy, I see you have 2 choices. Pay the £99 by 28th October and that should be an end to it or go to court (in person) and explain clearly, from your point of view, the events as they happened, pointing out the potential misunderstanding of the journeys GWR alleged you made (Penryn?). Then it will be up to the judge to determine whether you committed the offence GWR are bringing or not. What they are unlikely to do is consider anything you say suggesting that an employee of GWR has committed a criminal act - that would be a matter for the police to look into.

It's a risk, and only you will be able to decide what choice is right for you.

 

[Haywain]

What about this.

I am charged traveling from Falmouth or Penryn can't render at this point, to set Austell without a rocket intent not to pay.

I can definitively prove that I indeed did not travel from Falmouth or Penryn to St Austell on that day

Documentation definitively to prove that I did not undertake said journey as charged

What about this:
You were on a train without a ticket. You had passed opportunities to buy the said ticket at both Redruth and Truro - the latter by not leaving the train - the second of which is beyond doubt no matter what your actual journey was. Passing an opportunity to pay demonstrates, in the eyes of the law, intent to avoid payment. You will be found guilty in court. You can avoid this on payment of £99.

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP should pay £99 and chalk it up to experience. They’ve handled everything wrongly so far including a speculative attempt at legal pettifogging when they are in fact in the wrong, by not paying the full fare at the first and proper opportunity. That’s all really.

 

[andy1202]

So despite being told by guards catch them in the carriage and buy an extra ticket if going further. Which have done in the past on long journeys. You are supposed to leave a train. Delay arrival at destination, in this case to meet people awaiting new, and catch a layer train.
If that is so correct why do guards carry ticket machines to sell tickets on trains in line where all stations are manned.

I have always read on these forums that you should not disturb the guard if he is in his cab and if u need a ticket or need to speak to them so it st the first opportunity when you see them in the carriage.

Finally I thought intent had to be proven, intent not to pay or am I wrong again. Previously read it on forums

 

[some bloke]

How is the summons (Andy's profile picture) valid if it doesn't have anything in the sections for "Authorised by" and "Dated"?

If it isn't valid, they've run out of time for a new one.

 

[andy1202]

How is the summons (Andy's profile picture) valid if it doesn't have anything in the sections for "Authorised by" and "Dated"?

If it isn't valid, they've run out of time for a new one.

Well spotted, but I imagine they sent me one and the court one but yes shall look into that.

You know what this railway's law is the only law in the land where you are guilty until proven innocent. Complete 160 on the standard convention..

Travesty.

 

[skyhigh]

So despite being told by guards catch them in the carriage and buy an extra ticket if going further. Which have done in the past on long journeys. You are supposed to leave a train. Delay arrival at destination, in this case to meet people awaiting new, and catch a layer train.

If you change your plans and want to travel further - buy a ticket online, seek out a member of staff or if no other option get off, buy a ticket and get the next train.

If that is so correct why do guards carry ticket machines to sell tickets on trains in line where all stations are manned.

In case the ticket office at the origin station is shut, in case someone (like yourself) changes their mind and wants to travel further etc

I have always read on these forums that you should not disturb the guard if he is in his cab

You're free to knock on the cab door. You won't get fined for disturbing the guard and you won't get accused of intending to avoid payment.

if u need a ticket or need to speak to them so it st the first opportunity when you see them in the carriage.

If the ticket office is shut at the origin station or the machines are out of order, you need to buy a ticket at the first opportunity - which would be if the guard came through, if you had time to buy a ticket at a connecting station or at the ticket office at the destination station. If there were facilities available and you change your mind and want to travel further, you need to seek out an opportunity to pay before you go past the point at which your ticket was no longer valid.

Finally I thought intent had to be proven, intent not to pay or am I wrong again. Previously read it on forums

Depends on which offence they choose to charge you with. Byelaws are strict liability, they require zero proof of intent. For more serious charges, such as the Regulation of Railways Act intent does have to be proven to a reasonable standard. Arguably the facts are you didn't purchase the ticket where the facilities were available, didn't seek out staff and when asked to pay were unable to present a method of payment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

You know what this railway's law is the only law in the land where you are guilty until proven innocent. Complete 160 on the standard convention..

To be honest, I think you need to drop the 'I've been wronged' act. You aren't in the right here.

 

[Haywain]

Finally I thought intent had to be proven, intent not to pay or am I wrong again. Previously read it on forums

Intent is judged by words and actions, not thoughts. The action of passing an opportunity to pay demonstrates intent.

 

[some bloke]

If it isn't valid, they've run out of time for a new one.

Maybe as the original "information was laid" within six months, that could be used for a new, valid summons.

 

[andy1202]

I have asked guards before when I've been in a journey to buy a ticket to a further destination and they say yes no problem.
If next time I am in a train and ask a guard their policy it may help if they say yes you can but a ticket from me?

This interaction was my first time I saw the guard since boarding. I know that disturbing a guard while they are in their cab carrying it safety critical duties you can be fine for so I've always seen it spoken to a guard if need be when they come through the carriage which is what people are advised to do.
I tried to buy the ticket like 2 min after leaving Truro it wasn't like I was hiding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==


Taking money from me as I was giving it to them to pay for a ticket thereby not allowing me to pay at that time. Surely that is an act of obstruction in me buying a ticket, and despite that I then provided enough monies for a ticket 5 min after.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2022 ==

What about this.

I am charged traveling from Falmouth or Penryn can't render at this point, to set Austell without a rocket intent not to pay.

I can definitively prove that I indeed did not travel from Falmouth or Penryn to St Austell on that day

Documentation definitively to prove that I did not undertake said journey as charged

Is cash not a method of payment? Despite planning to pay by card, but lost between home and going to pay, I produced cash. A perfectly legal payment method

 

[6Gman]

So despite being told by guards catch them in the carriage and buy an extra ticket if going further. Which have done in the past on long journeys. You are supposed to leave a train. Delay arrival at destination, in this case to meet people awaiting new, and catch a layer train.
If that is so correct why do guards carry ticket machines to sell tickets on trains in line where all stations are manned.

I have always read on these forums that you should not disturb the guard if he is in his cab and if u need a ticket or need to speak to them so it st the first opportunity when you see them in the carriage.

Finally I thought intent had to be proven, intent not to pay or am I wrong again. Previously read it on forums

Really? Can you give any examples?

Personally, on occasions where I have been unable to buy before travelling I have actively sought out the guard. Precisely to remove any suggestion of evading the fare.

 

[skyhigh]

A perfectly legal payment method

As long as you haven't passed a facility that takes cash. The ticket offices at Redruth and Truro were both opportunities to buy the correct ticket. You also couldn't produce the full amount in cash when asked.

 

[andy1202]

Maybe as the original "information was laid" within six months, that could be used for a new, valid summons.

No that's not allowed read that up

 

[Bertie the bus]

Finally I thought intent had to be proven, intent not to pay or am I wrong again. Previously read it on forums

It would be quite easy to prove intent. As GWR have stated you could have purchased your ticket on arrival at St Austell when you didn't have success purchasing it from the guard / ticket inspector but instead you just walked off and caught your bus.

 

[andy1202]

As long as you haven't passed a facility that takes cash. The ticket offices at Redruth and Truro were both opportunities to buy the correct ticket. You also couldn't produce the full amount in cash when asked.

U r missing the point I didn't know until arriving at truro that I now needed st austell. The guard was walking towards me while still in Truro where I said I need a ticket I need my to find my bank card... rest of story

 

[jumble]

I fear that you are going to have an unpleasant surprise in the Magistrates court
I suspect the magistrates will not take the slightest bit of notice of your allegation that the Guard stole £1.00 despite being in the presence of a RPI

I think you will lose and this will end up costing you a great deal more than £99
As others have said at the moment of inspection you could not produce either a ticket or the cash for the fare
What ever else happened will likely be ignored by the magistrates
Do perhaps consider that you are in a "game" with the prosecutor and by and large they invented the rules and have had a lot of practice playing the "game"