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Pendolino Pantographs

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SpacePhoenix

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Whenever I've watched clips on Youtube showing Pendolinos its always without fail the rear pantograph (for the direction of travel) that's raised. Is it something to do with aerodynamics and the affects on the wires that causes it?
 
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dubscottie

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The rear one is used so if the driver spots a fault/something caught in the OHLE, they might have time to drop the pan before it gets to the problem.
 

TRAX

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It can also be used to prevent grease and particles resulting from the OHLE/pantograph contact from landing on the train.
 

Harbon 1

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As well as if the front pantograph gets damaged, it could fall on the rear one rendering it also un-servicable and giving no alternative to move the train out the way and having to repair two instead of one.
 

Bald Rick

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As well as if the front pantograph gets damaged, it could fall on the rear one rendering it also un-servicable and giving no alternative to move the train out the way and having to repair two instead of one.

It's this reason, learnt from experience.
 

Ships

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I have it in my head it was to do with preventing waves in the OLE contact wire, but I might be confusing it with something else.
 

najaB

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I have it in my head it was to do with preventing waves in the OLE contact wire, but I might be confusing it with something else.
I think that is why they don't use both pantographs.
 

Whistler40145

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Can someone advise why Pendolinos don't run with both Pantographs raised as per the norm in Europe?
 

najaB

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Can someone advise why Pendolinos don't run with both Pantographs raised as per the norm in Europe?
They don't need to - as they have an AC bus all the way through. And, as mentioned above, keeping both pantographs in contact with the wire at 140mph would be 'interesting' to say the least.
 

swt_passenger

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They don't need to - as they have an AC bus all the way through. And, as mentioned above, keeping both pantographs in contact with the wire at 140mph would be 'interesting' to say the least.

This is why the GW wiring is more substantial and under greater tension, to cope with 2 x 5 car IEPs both with pans up within a similar length to a 390.
 

Haig paxton

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You are all wrong. They used to always run with the front pantograph raised until around four years ago when during a very cold winter spell it was found that ice was being struck by this front pan as the train passed through tunnels etc. The ice was then damaging the roofs of the following coaches and even smashing windows. It was decided then to minimise risk to run with the rear pantograph raised as any ice would hopefully only hit one or two following coaches. There was an article all about the switch in RAIL magazine at the time.
 

Philip Phlopp

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You are all wrong. They used to always run with the front pantograph raised until around four years ago when during a very cold winter spell it was found that ice was being struck by this front pan as the train passed through tunnels etc. The ice was then damaging the roofs of the following coaches and even smashing windows. It was decided then to minimise risk to run with the rear pantograph raised as any ice would hopefully only hit one or two following coaches. There was an article all about the switch in RAIL magazine at the time.

RAIL magazine has an alarming penchant for making any old rubbish up as they go along.

I was told by an Alstom operative that the main reason for the change was simply carbon wear and it's purely down to the knuckle direction - knuckle forward in the direction of travel maintains a more consistent contact force with the OLE and cuts down on carbon wear. Knuckle back is that little bit less efficient and wear increases. That's basic BR/BW High Speed pantograph behaviour that has been known about since the development work was undertaken.

It made sense to use the rear pantograph rather than swap the pantograph orientation on both vehicles as it was hoped having the rear pantograph in use would allow drivers to spot minor OLE damage, typically debris in the catenary or even dislodged droppers, and they could drop the rear pantograph. It was undoubtedly cheaper and easier too, given the pans on a Pendo have a counter-tilt electric mechanism.

It's slightly unrealistic, at the very extent of their field of vision, it buys them maybe five or ten seconds at most when doing 125mph (and they see significant debris in the catenary). Drivers will never be able to react in time for dislodged droppers or minor debirs at typical line speeds, but around stations and areas of complex pointwork where the catenary is perhaps more likely to be lightly damaged, it gives them a little more time to act.

Ice deflected from the catenary causing damage to the stock is pretty ridiculous, even for RAIL magazine. It's a known quantity on every route and isn't something which particularly affected the old LHCS on the WCML, or indeed, the IC225 sets on the ECML. Windows do get damaged in the winter, particularly when it's snowy and ice forms in tunnels, on parts of the OLE and impacts vehicles doing 125mph, but the ice being dislodged from the catenary itself does little or no damage to the stock.

Alstom's own staff think the Pendolino's propensity for broken windows in winter is down to their aerodynamics which tends to create more turbulence under and around the stock, allowing ice coated ballast to the picked up and thrown around. The tilt mechanism may also add small amounts of twisting force into the coach which weakens the bonded windows and combined with cold weather making them slightly more brittle, makes them more likely to break when hit by ballast during snowy/icy conditions.
 

TRAX

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You are all wrong. They used to always run with the front pantograph raised until around four years ago when during a very cold winter spell it was found that ice was being struck by this front pan as the train passed through tunnels etc. The ice was then damaging the roofs of the following coaches and even smashing windows. It was decided then to minimise risk to run with the rear pantograph raised as any ice would hopefully only hit one or two following coaches. There was an article all about the switch in RAIL magazine at the time.



That's totally wrong. Sometimes when there is frost and ice on the OHLE, the front pantograph is used to actually remove some of that frost/ice and the second one is then used to receive the current efficiently, as the first pantograph couldn't do that because of the presence of frost/ice.
 

Whistler40145

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Would using both Pantographs cause too much power to be taken from the OHLE?

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Joseph_Locke

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Would using both Pantographs cause too much power to be taken from the OHLE?

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No, since, as noted above, they are electrically common anyway. The issue with multiple pantographs "up" is resonance in the catenary - the 110mph operation of 12-car 350s is having just this issue under the WCML OLE.

My memory of the 390 safety case was that they (were supposed to) always run pan trailing?
 

dgl

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Would using both Pantographs cause too much power to be taken from the OHLE?

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The loco/MU will have a maximum electrical consumption (traction, hotel power Etc.) and unless there is a short somewhere in the pantograph feed it won't draw any more power even if 2 pantographs are up (a 100w lightbulb will always consume 100w even if it had 2 230v supplies connected to it).

With 2 pantographs up it could potentially draw more current (in the same way that a double socket can give out more amps than a single socket), but if it doesn't need it, it won't use it.

So no it won't cause too much power to be taken.
 

Whistler40145

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Thanks for your reply.

Would having two Pantographs raised cause problems with it Neutral Section or is it the same as a EMU?

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swt_passenger

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Thanks for your reply.

Would having two Pantographs raised cause problems with it Neutral Section or is it the same as a EMU?

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Yes, big problems, because the train 25 kV bus would provide a dead short between the two separate supplies, which will usually be out of phase with one another.

EMUs in multiple are seen as separate trains when looked at from the OHLE's point of view.
 

jfollows

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RAIL magazine has an alarming penchant for making any old rubbish up as they go along.

I'm sure one of the first editions covered a Class 87 cab ride and described the pantograph going down before each neutral section and going back up again afterwards.
 

Domh245

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Yes, big problems, because the train 25 kV bus would provide a dead short between the two separate supplies, which will usually be out of phase with one another.

EMUs in multiple are seen as separate trains when looked at from the OHLE's point of view.

Is that not (1 of the reasons) why VCBs are used? As each pantograph goes underneath the neutral section, it is removed from the circuit, so there wouldn't be any electrical connection between the phases, no?
 

Philip Phlopp

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Is that not (1 of the reasons) why VCBs are used? As each pantograph goes underneath the neutral section, it is removed from the circuit, so there wouldn't be any electrical connection between the phases, no?

Sort of, it stops the pantograph from creating (almost dragging, I guess) an arc between the two sections across the neutral section.

The neutral section is also earthed to try and prevent such an arc from bridging the two sections, should the VCB not function and an arc be drawn from one section towards the second.

There are typically little metal 'horns' which attract any arcing to earth too within the neutral section catenary.
 

DY444

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I'm sure one of the first editions covered a Class 87 cab ride and described the pantograph going down before each neutral section and going back up again afterwards.

Correct. It was actually Issue 1. Set a standard for drivel which they've by and large maintained ever since :roll:
 

swt_passenger

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Is that not (1 of the reasons) why VCBs are used? As each pantograph goes underneath the neutral section, it is removed from the circuit, so there wouldn't be any electrical connection between the phases, no?

In the hypothetical condition of a train with two pans connected to the same 25 kV bus line there could still be a point where both VCB were closed, depending on the speed the train was travelling, e.g. if the leading VCB had re-closed but the trailing VCB was yet to open. Obviously all dependent on relative lengths of the train and neutral section, and APC magnet positioning.
 

Crossover

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My memory of the 390 safety case was that they (were supposed to) always run pan trailing?

They definitely used to run with the front pantograph in use for a number of years (knuckle trailing, which I always thought a bit odd anyway!). I think the changeover to rear pan happened somewhere around 2010 as it was in the time where I was using Pendos on a semi-regular basis whilst living away in Milton Keynes and needing to get to Manchester and beyond on a weekend

EMUs in multiple are seen as separate trains when looked at from the OHLE's point of view.

i.e the high voltage bus doesn't run through the coupler head (which would make sense as those pins wouldn't take such power!)?
 

rebmcr

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Would having two Pantographs raised cause problems with Neutral Sections?

That would depend on how long the sections are. Can any of the experts confirm whether they are shorter, or longer, than the ~150m-ish between pans on an 11-car 390/1?
 
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