Penrith to Keswick

[snakeeyes]

does anyone know what's happening to this scheme?

 

[Blindtraveler]

As far as Im aware nothing and whilst I would have thought there would be a clear business case for a rail link into the central lakes I doubt itl happen in my lifetime

meanwhile the still excillent bus service continues and does at least serve the rail station at Penrith

 

[najaB]

does anyone know what's happening to this scheme?

Was there actually a scheme - as in a defined plan supported by Network Rail?

 

[BigCj34]

According to local news, campaigners are anticipating that the new Moorside power station will give impetus to reinstate the whole Workington-Penrith link, as significant infrastructure improvements will be required in West Cumbria. It'd certainly be interesting to see what would come of it, as this is quite possibly the best chance of seeing Keswick to Penrith being reopened.

Otherwise, it's difficult to find a business case for a new spur line in this day and age. It's one of those situations where it would be well-used if there today, but just not seen as viable enough to justify being rebuilt.

 

[RichmondCommu]

This has been discussed at length and whilst it would be nice to see the line re-opened I fear that this thread (despite its best intentions) will only start the same old arguments.

 

[najaB]

This has been discussed at length...

Hence my surprise at it being referred to as a 'scheme' rather than 'pipe dream'.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Perhaps then it would be farer to request mods to lock it now rather than another multi page squabble?

 

[themiller]

According to local news, campaigners are anticipating that the new Moorside power station will give impetus to reinstate the whole Workington-Penrith link, as significant infrastructure improvements will be required in West Cumbria. It'd certainly be interesting to see what would come of it, as this is quite possibly the best chance of seeing Keswick to Penrith being reopened.

Otherwise, it's difficult to find a business case for a new spur line in this day and age. It's one of those situations where it would be well-used if there today, but just not seen as viable enough to justify being rebuilt.

As far as I can tell from the consultation materials from the power station sponsor, the only rail infrastructure improvements will be limited to an upgrade at Corkickle where there will be an second platform, St Bees where the passing loop will be extended, a link into the power station site (possibly along the trackbed of the old line to Egremont [my conjecture]), and a new station for the power station itself.
I don't know why they'd need to reopen the CKP railway for the power station!

 

[Lankyline]

Talking to someone who works for South Lakes Council, some of the bridges suffered serious damage during the floods up there, inc major foundation damage, any hope of this private initiative moving forward may just have come to a grinding halt, pity really could have had potential

 

[furnessvale]

As far as I can tell from the consultation materials from the power station sponsor, the only rail infrastructure improvements will be limited to an upgrade at Corkickle where there will be an second platform, St Bees where the passing loop will be extended, a link into the power station site (possibly along the trackbed of the old line to Egremont [my conjecture]), and a new station for the power station itself.
I don't know why they'd need to reopen the CKP railway for the power station!

The local authorities are pushing for various infrastructure improvements including roads and bridges, not necessarily as "necessary" for the power station, but simply as a bribe to get the thing built.

CK & P could just as easily be such a bribe.

 

[BigCj34]

It also appears to be quicker to get from Workington to Penrith via train going via Carlisle, than a bus spanning the A66. Not sure how much quicker a direct train would be.

As much as it would be nice to see reopened, difficult to see a campaign group raising the funds for the Penrith Keswick branch. Perhaps the nuclear route is the best chance, but if the capacity can be reached by a couple of extra passing loops then that's a non-starter for a line I suspect is probably not being stretched for train capacity.

furnessvale I'm not sure what you mean by a bribe there.

 

[furnessvale]

furnessvale I'm not sure what you mean by a bribe there.

I am sure you do. Large company wants to build huge factory or whatever.

Even if the LA may have no direct input into granting planning permission the offer of a new swimming pool etc can help to get the LA "onside".

 

[najaB]

I am sure you do. Large company wants to build huge factory or whatever.

Even if the LA may have no direct input into granting planning permission the offer of a new swimming pool etc can help to get the LA "onside".

That's not a bribe. It is neither uncommon nor illegal for a company to contribute towards public infrastructure as a condition of gaining planning approval for a large project.

 

[furnessvale]

That's not a bribe. It is neither uncommon nor illegal for a company to contribute towards public infrastructure as a condition of gaining planning approval for a large project.

Of course not. Perhaps my use of bribe was not the correct word but I am sure people get my drift ( and I speak as one who has prepared file for the successful prosecution of public officials for bribery at crown court).

 

[BigCj34]

I have read that its would be £120m for Penrith-Keswick, so to have the whole route reopened, let's just say it would be £500m, that's 5% of Moorside's proposed cost of £10bn. Opening the whole route is of course the only thing of interest for nuclear freight, not much use if it stops at Keswick.

How much extra freight traffic would Moorside generate? Would an upgraded existing line suffice for the increase in freight and passenger traffic?

 

[The Planner]

Of course not. Perhaps my use of bribe was not the correct word but I am sure people get my drift ( and I speak as one who has prepared file for the successful prosecution of public officials for bribery at crown court).

Section 106, happens all the time.

 

[yorksrob]

I have read that its would be £120m for Penrith-Keswick, so to have the whole route reopened, let's just say it would be £500m, that's 5% of Moorside's proposed cost of £10bn. Opening the whole route is of course the only thing of interest for nuclear freight, not much use if it stops at Keswick.

How much extra freight traffic would Moorside generate? Would an upgraded existing line suffice for the increase in freight and passenger traffic?

Seems like a comparatively small proportion of the overall costs, particularly when you add in the potential benefits to local residents of better public transport.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Seems like a comparatively small proportion of the overall costs, particularly when you add in the potential benefits to local residents of better public transport.

But how does it help with transporting construction staff along the coast and ferrying materials from the new pier? surely if there was £500m available you'd sort the Barrow Coast line out first as that has more up-front benefit.

As to £500m, I suspect you might be a bit short there, given the amount of A66 there is to shift and the bulldozing of parts of Cockermouth ...

 

[yorksrob]

But how does it help with transporting construction staff along the coast and ferrying materials from the new pier? surely if there was £500m available you'd sort the Barrow Coast line out first as that has more up-front benefit.

As to £500m, I suspect you might be a bit short there, given the amount of A66 there is to shift and the bulldozing of parts of Cockermouth ...

Why assume that all construction workers will come from along the coast ? There could be many from Penrith and Keswick.

Does the Barrow Coast line even need £500m worth of "sorting out" ? Other than some of the trains being a bit short, it seems to do its job pretty well already.

 

[Mordac]

Why assume that all construction workers will come from along the coast ? There could be many from Penrith and Keswick.

Does the Barrow Coast line even need £500m worth of "sorting out" ? Other than some of the trains being a bit short, it seems to do its job pretty well already.

Needs dual tracking all the way.

 

[swt_passenger]

This has been discussed at length and whilst it would be nice to see the line re-opened I fear that this thread (despite its best intentions) will only start the same old arguments.

As far as regular repeats go this has been off the air for a few years now, I expect there's now a reasonable number of members who never saw it the first time round. Seems like an ideal place to use loco hauled 442s...

 

[snowball]

The last thread on the subject is just under two years old:

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104074

[Edit: This wasn't the most recent! See post #41 below.]

 

[swt_passenger]

The last thread on the subject is just under two years old:

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104074

Yes, I see we were both on the first page! When I say it doesn't come round that often, I'm comparing it to things like XC to Brighton...

 

[quantinghome]

I can't see this being built by the Moorside development. There's already a rail line right by the site (a bit of luxury as some sites don't have one at all). Improvements to local facilities are provided in this consultation document:

https://nugenconsultation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Proposed-Scheme-Overview.pdf

Unsurprisingly, they don't include reinstating the railway from Penrith to Cockermouth. There will be a plan to transport workers to the site, but this will almost certainly be in the form of buses.

 

[Ships]

Why assume that all construction workers will come from along the coast ? There could be many from Penrith and Keswick.

Does the Barrow Coast line even need £500m worth of "sorting out" ? Other than some of the trains being a bit short, it seems to do its job pretty well already.

Not £500m but needs a lot of work. Line currently just copes with the current load but with the extra freight for the spoil it'll fall apart very quickly. Also the whole route has gauging issues, very narrow 6 foots etc.

 

[The Planner]

Needs dual tracking all the way.

What for? how many trains are going to go down there? If you were going to spend millions on something along there it would be ETCS, you would make the money back on OpEx savings quite easily I would have thought.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

What for? how many trains are going to go down there? If you were going to spend millions on something along there it would be ETCS, you would make the money back on OpEx savings quite easily I would have thought.

Up to 12 freight trains a day at peak construction time. Additionally, 6 trains a day to/from the new mine at St Bees and 1 train a day for the new vaults at Drigg.

There will also be several additional passenger services a day on the Whitehaven to Sellafield core as Nugen will require 90% of their workforce to use rail or bus services to and from site.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have read that its would be £120m for Penrith-Keswick, so to have the whole route reopened, let's just say it would be £500m, that's 5% of Moorside's proposed cost of £10bn. Opening the whole route is of course the only thing of interest for nuclear freight, not much use if it stops at Keswick.

It would be knocking the door of £500m just for Penrith - Keswick.

Meanwhile, in a couple of weeks I shall be using the express bus on the route from Penrith station to central Keswick. It takes 40 minutes and costs £6.50. Quite how investing half a billion quid of public money to make it a bit quicker for (presumably) similar fares could ever make a business case is beyond me.

 

[The Planner]

In each direction or in total? Nothing to stop the boxes from opening longer and letting the trains run. Still doesnt mean the entire route needs doubling.

 

[yorksrob]

The single track section is comparatively short anyway I believe.