'PEP' derived stock: unloved workhorses, missed when withdrawn

[delt1c]

In years to come we will lament the demise of the PEP derived stock. Never really loved by enthusiasts when in service but good reliable workhorses, that did the job they were designed for magnificently. Very much like the SUBs and EPBs.

Taken for granted in service by enthusiasts, then much missed when they were gone.

 

[DGH 1]

I

In years to come we will lament the demise of the PEP derived stock. Never really loved by enthusiasts when in service but good reliable workhorses, that did the job they were designed for magnificently. Very much like the SUBs and EPBs.

Taken for granted in service by enthusiasts, then much missed when they were gone.

I have to admit that i have never liked the look of any of the PEP derived stock, i have always thought of them as distinctly box like and ugly. But as you say they will be missed as everything always is once it goes.

 

[Mag_seven]

I always see them as the pioneers of poor seat to window alignment which seems to have infected most rolling stock designs since.

 

[WesternLancer]

I always see them as the pioneers of poor seat to window alignment which seems to have infected most rolling stock designs since.

Very good point! But growing up in the SR area in the 70s they seemed to me like the height of modernity when they arrived - as sliding doors were not a thing in SR territory - if for no other reason than that. Less woodwork about the interior made them look modern too.

I enjoyed a 313 on Southern not long ago, and was pleased to see the BR liveried one at Brighton, and before lock down had a day out to sample London Overground / TfL PEPs from Liverpool Street - with their original style interiors. As you say rubbish for views however.

I guess they are on borrowed time in London and Liverpool now, and finished in Scotland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always see them as the pioneers of poor seat to window alignment which seems to have infected most rolling stock designs since.

I have memories associated with them as I grew up with Merseyrail - but seriously, what possessed someone to design a piece of rolling stock in which not a single seat has a decent view out of the window? Not even one.

Interestingly, this issue arose at production - the prototype units had the windows closer together so the issue was not as pronounced.

 

[yorksrob]

Nah, can't say as I'll miss em much. Not a patch on the wonderful EPB's/SUB's.

That said, the Thameslinky type units have been a welcome capacity boost on Northern of late.

 

[Helvellyn]

I always see them as the pioneers of poor seat to window alignment which seems to have infected most rolling stock designs since.

I think part of the problem was the way the coaches were built with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing. In a trailer the aim was essentially to have three seating bays / doors / three seating bays / doors/ three seating bays. Cabs removed a seating bay.

The Class 303s/311s showed how seating could be aligned with windows much better. In the original layout having bench style seats against the door pockets also made access between vestibules and saloons easier.

It wasn't until we got to the Networker design that the use of plug doors brought the alignment of seating bays and windows back.

But the PEP designed units did do a good job being the first second generation EMUs. The boxy design actually worked with the right livery and the end doors were needed in all due to some tunnel running except for the Class 315s.

Whilst some lamented what went before the PEP designs were also replacing pre-war designs (Class 306/502/503) EMUs that were life expired or delivering route expansion/modernisation (Argyle Line or Northern City line/Mersey tunnels). Very much workhorses and they remained on the lines they were built for bar some spare units being used elsewhere (313s/508s).

The 313s with Southern will be the longest lived and it will be interesting to see what replaces them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think part of the problem was the way the coaches were built with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing. In a trailer the aim was essentially to have three seating bays / doors / three seating bays / doors/ three seating bays. Cabs removed a seating bay.

The Class 303s/311s showed how seating could be aligned with windows much better. In the original layout having bench style seats against the door pockets also made access between vestibules and saloons easier.

Yes, I'd say a better layout would be to have two bays aligned with the pair of windows, then a side-facing seat against each door pocket (this could be two seats on the middle coach, where the middle section has a longer "door pocket" on one side). OK, that's 4 fewer seats per section, but these units have good standee provision. There's also an argument that you could have improved standee provision further by not having any seats against the door pockets and instead having standbacks, but I think that's a much more recent realisation.

 

[WesternLancer]

I always liked the open 'airy' nature within the saloon provided by the low backed seats. I assume never ideal from crash worthiness point of view they must have been deemed acceptable at the time of construction.

 

[nlogax]

Very happy memories of traveling on shiny NSE-liveried 315s replacing the somewhat decrepit 305s on the Chingford - Liverpool St line. As for the NLL, 313s on those were far more preferable to rammed EPBs. Window and seat alignment be damned, it was refreshing to just have an airy, modern interior at the time.

I'll miss those ex-508 trailers in the SW 455s too - the quirk of that PEP trailer profile amongst the masses of Mk3-derived rakes at Waterloo.

 

[delt1c]

It can’t be denied that they were crowd busters. You only had to watch them at Tottenham Hale in the peaks to see how they could load and unload in a minute. As for interior , they were a Great Leap Forward compared to cramped , dark 6 aside compartment stock, knees knocking against opposite passengers. Squashed to get her and apart from the 4 corner seats no view. Added to that on wet days condensation running down the inside of the windows. Yes Pep derived stock had its disadvantages. But designers must have got something right as they lasted over 40 years.

 

[Journeyman]

Yeah...I remember the 508s being introduced on the Southern, and they were space-age compared to the grim, dingy, vandalised and crime-encouraging SUBs and EPBs which were gruesomely old-fashioned even when built.

Admittedly there were flaws, but they did the job and have proven to be among BR's better value purchases.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yeah...I remember the 508s being introduced on the Southern, and they were space-age compared to the grim, dingy, vandalised and crime-encouraging SUBs and EPBs which were gruesomely old-fashioned even when built.

Admittedly there were flaws, but they did the job and have proven to be among BR's better value purchases.

Obv they headed to SW division when new. Was there ever a plan to procure PEP type stuff for SE and Central divisions of the southern? - to replace the SUBs/EPBs? EG a plan that then got kyboshed by '79 change in govt and economic down turn in early 80s for example?

 

[yorksrob]

Hard seats, windows in the wrong place, too much standing space, clinical flourescent lighting. Not much of an improvement to my mind.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hard seats, windows in the wrong place, too much standing space, clinical flourescent lighting. Not much of an improvement to my mind.

Pic to cheer you up Rob -

Interior of Southern Railway (SR) carriage, 1925.

Interior of Southern Railway (SR) carriage, 1925. by . Museum quality art prints with a selection of frame and size options, canvases, postcards and mugs. SSPL Science and Society Picture Library

www.ssplprints.com

and all the character you need!

19930213 009 View Of The Outside (South East London) World, From Bulleid Style EPB Stock

Explore 15038's 16377 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[yorksrob]

Pic to cheer you up Rob -

Interior of Southern Railway (SR) carriage, 1925.

Interior of Southern Railway (SR) carriage, 1925. by . Museum quality art prints with a selection of frame and size options, canvases, postcards and mugs. SSPL Science and Society Picture Library

www.ssplprints.com

Yes, that looks a bit more like it

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, that looks a bit more like it

I love the view from the inside in the extra flikr link I just added to my last post

Mind you better get back on topic - some nice PEP pics here

The twilight of the Class 313s (part 1)

(updated with new pictures and information on the 9th April 2019) In the next few years several familiar types of train will disappear from the UK network. One such fleet is the BR built Class 313 …

paulbigland.blog

 

[Journeyman]

Obv they headed to SW division when new. Was there ever a plan to procure PEP type stuff for SE and Central divisions of the southern? - to replace the SUBs/EPBs? EG a plan that then got kyboshed by '79 change in govt and economic down turn in early 80s for example?

At the time, no. The Southern's management attempted to spread the benefits of what little investment money they had as fairly as possible, so the SW was lucky enough to get the new stock. SC got the initial batches of refurbished EPBs and SE got the refurbished CEPs.

 

[WesternLancer]

At the time, no. The Southern's management attempted to spread the benefits of what little investment money they had as fairly as possible, so the SW was lucky enough to get the new stock. SC got the initial batches of refurbished EPBs and SE got the refurbished CEPs.

Thanks - interesting to read.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I doubt whether they'll be greatly lamented by the enthusiast crowd - you only have to look at how under-represented commuter EMUs are in preservation or museums, despite the fact that they were probably the most common railway experience for most passengers since the middle of the last century. For preservationists, EMUs are awkward to store, virtually impossible to operate other than being dragged inauthentically behind a steam or diesel loco. Also, the interiors of anything from the formica-and-steel era are unlikely to appeal to the average non-enthusiast preservation line customer - to them they'd just be another 'modern' train like the one they commute to the City on.
A pity, but there we are...

 

[superjohn]

Hard seats, windows in the wrong place, too much standing space, clinical flourescent lighting. Not much of an improvement to my mind.

On the Northern City line standing was inevitable as the underground stations limited capacity without hugely expensive rebuilding. Providing standing space over seated capacity was the right decision. In a crush loading situation I would much rather be in a modern open plan carriage than a SUB/EPB type compartment. London Underground later adopted the idea with great success.

The PEP units were revolutionary and ideally suited to the short journey routes for which they were built.

 

[Journeyman]

I doubt whether they'll be greatly lamented by the enthusiast crowd - you only have to look at how under-represented commuter EMUs are in preservation or museums, despite the fact that they were probably the most common railway experience for most passengers since the middle of the last century. For preservationists, EMUs are awkward to store, virtually impossible to operate other than being dragged inauthentically behind a steam or diesel loco. Also, the interiors of anything from the formica-and-steel era are unlikely to appeal to the average non-enthusiast preservation line customer - to them they'd just be another 'modern' train like the one they commute to the City on.
A pity, but there we are...

True. The Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway was offered a 314, and turned it down for the reasons you mentioned. It caused a lot of enthusiasts to get very angry, but what exactly were they meant to do with it? Early EMUs are fairly easy to haul with a loco, and some of them can even work in push-pull mode with a bit of rewiring, but the PEPs need a translator vehicle to operate, which is yet another not-terribly-useful vehicle to maintain, requiring another 60ft of storage space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The PEP units were revolutionary and ideally suited to the short journey routes for which they were built.

They've certainly earned their keep well on Merseyrail.

One notable thing about them, very much unlike the 1980s steel bodied Mk3-derived EMUs, is that their shape is fairly timeless, as a result my sister thought they were actually new from when the first heavy gut-and-refurb took place in around 1998. So as long as you modernise the interior properly they don't really look 1970s, whereas the 1980s Mk3 EMUs look really dated (particularly 455s and the 317s with the small vents and Mk3 style ceiling, but to some extent all of them).

 

[bramling]

They've certainly earned their keep well on Merseyrail.

One notable thing about them, very much unlike the 1980s steel bodied Mk3-derived EMUs, is that their shape is fairly timeless, as a result my sister thought they were actually new from when the first heavy gut-and-refurb took place in around 1998. So as long as you modernise the interior properly they don't really look 1970s, whereas the 1980s Mk3 EMUs look really dated (particularly 455s and the 317s with the small vents and Mk3 style ceiling, but to some extent all of them).

The 317/2s refurbished by WAGN in the 1990s I wouldn’t say look particularly dated, neither inside nor out. To many people they are simply “a train”.

By contrast I took a non-railway-minded friend on a GN 313 in their final weeks and he was shocked at how dated it was, and that being someone used to Northern trains! Naturally the GN 313s had rather less of a comprehensive interior refurbishment than the Merseyrail units.

 

[WesternLancer]

True. The Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway was offered a 314, and turned it down for the reasons you mentioned. It caused a lot of enthusiasts to get very angry, but what exactly were they meant to do with it? Early EMUs are fairly easy to haul with a loco, and some of them can even work in push-pull mode with a bit of rewiring, but the PEPs need a translator vehicle to operate, which is yet another not-terribly-useful vehicle to maintain, requiring another 60ft of storage space.

Good points - I think they work well in a social history context where people can see how people travelled and also scope for nostalgia about your own experiences of travel in bygone eras. Hence the ability to see the interior of the Liverpool Overhead Railway vehicle at the Museum of Liverpool - with that in mind places like NRM, with their wider remit than say a preserved railway has, should do more of this for commuter trains (trains used by millions of people after all) eg a '4 car set' made up of a car from different eras for example such as a 'train' with a carriage each from say 2Bil - 4 Sub - Pep - Networker. That sort of thing, with interiors restored to original style etc, that you can stand inside and see in. That would be an informative and educational way of displaying what are otherwise hard to use examples of historic rolling stock.

 

[yorksrob]

We need to bring back the depot pets.

 

[Journeyman]

Good points - I think they work well in a social history context where people can see how people travelled and also scope for nostalgia about your own experiences of travel in bygone eras. Hence the ability to see the interior of the Liverpool Overhead Railway vehicle at the Museum of Liverpool - with that in mind places like NRM, with their wider remit than say a preserved railway has, should do more of this for commuter trains (trains used by millions of people after all) eg a '4 car set' made up of a car from different eras for example such as a 'train' with a carriage each from say 2Bil - 4 Sub - Pep - Networker. That sort of thing, with interiors restored to original style etc, that you can stand inside and see in. That would be an informative and educational way of displaying what are otherwise hard to use examples of historic rolling stock.

Yeah, I think single cars of various EMU designs are probably representative enough in many circumstances, such as the first-generation Southern suburban and LNWR Oerlikon cars in the NRM. As you say, from a social history perspective they're significant and important, but operationally they're never going to earn their keep, with one or two VERY significant exceptions - the LT Museum's 38 Stock being one that springs to mind.

 

[Journeyman]

We need to bring back the depot pets.

The biggest problem there is that most of the classic ones - SUB, BIL, class 306 etc - didn't comply with modern safety regulations and couldn't be made to comply without major alterations that are (a) too expensive and (b) would trash authenticity. The BIL had wooden body framing, for example, and would not have been able to operate unless totally structurally rebuilt.

Although in theory a PEP unit could be kept as a depot pet, I can't see the likes of that happening again due to the rather massive question mark hanging over the future of the railway's finances and organisation. Remember it was privatisation that did it for the SUB - in uncertain times, the railway can't afford luxuries.

It's a shame, but I can't really see any way around it unless a PEP were to be privately preserved and maintained to NR standards. It's probably not impossible, but it certainly presents a LOT of challenges.

 

[WesternLancer]

The biggest problem there is that most of the classic ones - SUB, BIL, class 306 etc - didn't comply with modern safety regulations and couldn't be made to comply without major alterations that are (a) too expensive and (b) would trash authenticity. The BIL had wooden body framing, for example, and would not have been able to operate unless totally structurally rebuilt.

Although in theory a PEP unit could be kept as a depot pet, I can't see the likes of that happening again due to the rather massive question mark hanging over the future of the railway's finances and organisation. Remember it was privatisation that did it for the SUB - in uncertain times, the railway can't afford luxuries.

It's a shame, but I can't really see any way around it unless a PEP were to be privately preserved and maintained to NR standards. It's probably not impossible, but it certainly presents a LOT of challenges.

I thought a PEP had been identified for the National Collection? (and presumed the one operating in BR colours on Southern was the unit in question?) - and the NRM had said the intention was to be able to use it on suitable tours. It would of course be a shame that an original interior was not saved to go in it.

* I realise I am basing that info on wikipedia entry

British Rail Class 313 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Upon retirement 313201 will be preserved by the National Railway Museum "- which is footnoted to an article in Rail Magazine in April 2019 - tho I also have a hunch I have seen it mentioned in the Friends of the NRM journal.

- Ah yes features (along with the class 306) in this Official Report by Science Museum Group on page 10 (with pic)

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

and this is a para of note:

"The use of innovative battery technology to power electric units overcomes problems of operating or maintaining an electric train capable of taking live power from an overhead wire or third rail. As with the replicas, operating an electric unit is something only the NRM could offer, and has potential to attract assistance from railway engineering companies, both practical and financial. Keeping the vehicles live protects systems within the units and assists with collections care. However, there are significant conservation and cost implications associated so this is currently viewed as a longer term aspiration."

 

[nlogax]

Personally I'd like to have seen one of the original prototype PEPs preserved. There was one hanging around besides the shed at Clapham Junction for some time into the late 80s and I had no idea what it was at the time. They were fascinating units, a real insight into BR's direction of thought in the late 60s / early 70s and a complete departure from what was running at the time.