Permitted journey?

[John Byde]

I'm a newbie contributor, although I've picked up lots of sound advice from the forum over the years.
I've never understood the routeing guide, but after experimenting with journey planners I am planning to do this next week:
SNR off peak return Bangor to Dorchester South via London = £85.55 (VT is the fare setter)

11th November, 0922 VT to EUS arr 1238
Walk to St Pancras and get next Thameslink train to City Thameslink
Break journey there to meet a friend for lunch etc.
Later in the day travel from City Thameslink to London Bridge then Waterloo.
Whatever train is appropriate to Dorchester South
(This strategy avoids travelling on the Underground 'cos I can't break journey on that?)

16th November
Dorchester South to Waterloo
Underground to Marylebone
Marylebone to Warwick
Break journey from friend's birthday party
Later same day (or possibly the following day) Warwick to Birmingham Moor Street.
Birmingham New Street via Crewe to Bangor.

(It would be simpler to use XC from Bournemouth to Leamington Spa but that's not via London and because XC is the fare setter it costs £5 more)

I know it's unconventional, but hey I'm retired! Can anyone think of any objections to the plan?

Thanks in advance

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum

Sorry I am not in a position to give a full response right now, but...

(It would be simpler to use XC from Bournemouth to Leamington Spa but that's not via London and because XC is the fare setter it costs £5 more

The change of route excess (which can be paid on board the train) would only be £2.30 for the return portion.

However such an excess should only be chargeable to the holder of an "Any Permitted" ticket if the route taken is not on a permitted route and the higher priced ticket validates that route. I'm not able to check this at the moment but hopefully someone will be along shortly.

That said, I would always recommend avoiding XC where possible, as the trains are likely to be overcrowded, rattling, and when reservations are not working, XC want passengers to play a game of 'musical chairs' (in contrast to the policies of most TOCs which is: find an available seat, and relax)

 

[bb21]

Your plan is fine.

You can break your journey on London Underground at an intermediate station, you just have to purchase a new Underground ticket to continue your "transfer" if you wish to do so later.

I don't know what the situation is where you have broken your cross-London transfer on the Underground but then decides to continue your "transfer" on National Rail services. I don't see anything forbidding this, and don't really think this can be enforced if not strictly allowed.

Something like Sub-Surface Lines (Met, Circle, Hot & Cold) Euston Square to Farringdon, then Thameslink to City Thameslink, break, then Thameslink City Thameslink to London Bridge and so on on your outward journey should therefore be OK I believe.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Breaking your journey while crossing London on National Rail services should be fine where break of journey is permitted by the ticket, but I am unsure of what hours the barriers at City Thameslink operate these days, or how they will react to break of journey.

 

[LexyBoy]

The ticket you refer to does not allow break of journey on the outward portion. Of course, you can take as long as you like to cross London...

The BoJ restriction is intended to stop these tickets being used for e.g. Crewe-London (where the Off Peak restrictions are much worse); I don't think you'll have a problem with meeting someone for lunch as you propose. However, unless you meet on Railway property (a pub at Kings X or St Pancras for example), it's not officially allowed so I would use Oyster/walk for the cross-London part rather than breaking at CTK.

However such an excess should only be chargeable to the holder of an "Any Permitted" ticket if the route taken is not on a permitted route and the higher priced ticket validates that route. I'm not able to check this at the moment but hopefully someone will be along shortly.

Eh? Surely an excess is chargeable when a route is taken which is not pemitted by the routeing on the ticket, and for which a fare exists which is valid.

Should the OP wish to avoid London on the return, he should ask for the +Via London fare with an excess on the return - this would also allow for a reservation to be made on the return leg (I'd not bother mentioning about the break at Warwick though, it would only confuse!).

That said, I would always recommend avoiding XC where possible, as the trains are likely to be overcrowded, rattling, and when reservations are not working, XC want passengers to play a game of 'musical chairs' (in contrast to the policies of most TOCs which is: find an available seat, and relax)

Should be no problem getting a seat from Bournemouth especially in the morning, and it would make the journey quite a bit more direct.

 

[bb21]

The ticket you refer to does not allow break of journey on the outward portion. Of course, you can take as long as you like to cross London...

Good point. Now do normal BoJ restrictions apply to the cross-London transfer part I wonder? Also how many staff at City Thameslink would be aware of that restriction on this ticket, and was the OP made aware of this restriction when buying this ticket?

A change of route excess for £2.25 could also resolve this issue I believe, but I would be very surprised if an excess is required.

 

[John Byde]

Thanks for the replies so far. I can't find anything that says I can't break journey on the outward part?? Ticket although priced by VT is BNG to DCH, remember, not BNG to EUS.
City Thameslink because we are meeting at the Museum of London. If push comes to shove I can walk from there to Waterloo afterwards, it's only 1.5miles and mostly on South Bank.
Thanks for advice about a small excess to travel XC. However, despite being longer I might prefer to go via Marylebone, tends to be a nicer experience.
Haven't bought ticket yet, will do it via AW website & ticket machine at BNG, with reservation on the VT to EUS.
In my (limited) experience elderly gent with a railcard, any ticket, a woolly hat and a rucsac is just waved thru when gateline won't take the ticket....I'm hardly a fraud risk, am I?

 

[redbutton]

Aren't you allowed to make a cross-London transfer on foot? Wouldn't that require going through the barriers?

WRT City Thameslink- that's my commute station, to which I travel on a season ticket between two suburban stations routed via London Not Und. It works the barriers. Of course, the season allows unlimited BoJ, but I'm sure one could use the above excuse if the barriers won't open.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the replies so far. I can't find anything that says I can't break journey on the outward part?? Ticket although priced by VT is BNG to DCH, remember, not BNG to EUS.

Hmm, well that's a can of worms.

It's not easy to find out if break of journey is prohibited. The NRCoC states you may break your journey except where it is advertised that you cannot. It is reasonably well published that you can't break your journey on an Advance ticket, but I agree it is very rare for such restrictions to be advertised for the small minority of outward portions of (Super) Off Peak tickets which don't allow it.

In this case, the restriction for a BNG - DCH SVR (Route: +via London) does not allow BOJ (I've linked to brfares.com which is an unofficial site, but is the easiest way to check!)

There is an argument to say that such restrictions are not enforceable, if they are not advertised in accordance with the NRCoC. You can form your own opinion on that, however...!

In reality the reasoning for the restriction is an attempt to stop people who wish to travel, say, Crewe to London at peak times, who do not hold a Railcard, from asking for a Bangor to London SVR for immediate travel.

I believe there is no desire by Virgin to stop you doing what you propose, but the rules are not as flexible or detailed as that, so technically you are not allowed to break your journey in London.

However you may leave a station to catch a train from another station, e.g. a slow walk across London from one terminal to another. Also permitted would be, for example, having a meal at a pub within a station. But visiting other destinations within London is, technically, not permitted. Note that I make no comment on enforceability, and am just explaining the rules.

City Thameslink because we are meeting at the Museum of London. If push comes to shove I can walk from there to Waterloo afterwards, it's only 1.5miles and mostly on South Bank.

Technically you are not permitted to visit a museum, but a walk through London between terminals is acceptable.

Thanks for advice about a small excess to travel XC. However, despite being longer I might prefer to go via Marylebone, tends to be a nicer experience.

Totally agree.

Haven't bought ticket yet, will do it via AW website & ticket machine at BNG, with reservation on the VT to EUS.
In my (limited) experience elderly gent with a railcard, any ticket, a woolly hat and a rucsac is just waved thru when gateline won't take the ticket....

I agree that your experience is consistent with that typically experienced by people of a similar demographic profile, and that people of 'opposite' deomgraphic profiles are more likely to experience hassle.

One way round break of journey issues is to ask permission to break your journey, before doing so, e.g. on arrival at Euston, asking a member of staff "am I allowed to break my journey before resuming from Waterloo later today?" the answer is, in my opinion, likely to be "yes" - which would authorise the break.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for the replies so far. I can't find anything that says I can't break journey on the outward part?? Ticket although priced by VT is BNG to DCH, remember, not BNG to EUS.

No, no BoJ on the outward.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Leaving the barriers at Euston, and entering them at Waterloo, will not be an issue. Both are valid interchange points. You are not breaking your journey by leaving Euston and transferring, at your own leisure, to Waterloo.

Trying to leave at City Thameslink may be more of an issue, as that is not listed on any itinerary as an interchange point. Given FCC operate that station, and given that they seem to take a literal view of the new diktat that you need a National Rail Enquiries itinerary for a journey to be valid, that's not a risk I'd necessarily take.

In any case, the nearest station to the Museum of London is Barbican. I would take the NRES website at its word- it says you may "break your transfer journey", without further clarification about ticket types- and break your transfer journey there (catch any eastbound train from Euston Square). If you don't feel comfortable doing that, or to insure yourself, get a single instead.

If you hold a concessionary bus pass the leg from the Museum to Waterloo won't be a problem: you can get the 4 bus from outside the Museum or the 521 bus from outside St Paul's station.

 

[bb21]

But he IS breaking his transfer at City Thameslink AFAIK.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm no fares expert so I hope I'll be corrected if I am wrong, but this is how I interpret it.

National Rail's website says this:

To check if the cost of travel across London is included in your ticket, look for the ‘†' symbol which will be shown in the tickets ‘Route' information, e.g. [‘†' ANY PERMITTED].

Tickets displaying this indicator are valid for travel between any two stations shown in the ‘Station List' (below) appropriate to the route of the through journey being made.

You can ‘break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any intermediate station, e.g. if you are travelling between Victoria and Euston you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another ticket.

It doesn't mention anything about whether or not your ticket otherwise permits a break of journey.

City Thameslink is not an Underground station, therefore I would take it to mean that National Rail rules apply, i.e. no break of journey on this ticket type. If the OP tries to leave at City Thameslink there is a danger the barrier won't permit him to leave and the FCC staff may issue a Penalty Fare. Barbican- which is closer to the Museum of London where the OP wants to go- is an Underground station and National Rail's website says you can break your transfer journey at an Underground station, so long as you pay to re-enter the Underground system afterwards.

There is also an argument that City Thameslink is not on a reasonable route between Euston and Waterloo, as the Northern Line operates directly between the two. That could also apply to Barbican, although you could make an argument that travelling via Moorgate and Bank is also reasonable.

I would advise the OP to not break his journey on his ticket, merely to carry out his transfer as he should: exit at Euston and re-enter again, having transferred across London at his leisure, at Waterloo. For the separate Euston Square to Barbican leg I would advise him to buy a single and for the Museum of London to Waterloo leg I'd advise him to use his bus pass and get the 4 or the 521 buses, or walk.

 

[John Byde]

Thanks for all the expertise.
I'm pretty sure ATW website won't flag up that I can't break journey on outward half, and I could ask VT train manager if I could actually, but as you say FCC staff at City Thameslink could say "so what?"
Sounds like safest option is to go to EUS, take District/Circle from Euston Sq to Barbican and leave LUL there. Then do whatever I choose and later in the day walk 1.5miles to Waterloo via South Bank - I might need some "fresh London air" by then - it may not be quite the same as the mountain behind the house, but better than LUL underground walkways, buying extra tickets etc etc.
I'll decide about the £2.50 excess option for going back on XC later.
Incidentally I can't use a Welsh bus pass "abroad" - ie England, Scotland (or N Ireland probably tho' I've no personal experience of that). Same vice versa.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or to be absolutely in the clear
SNR Single London St Pancras to London Waterloo East £1.70
No restrictions so presumably boj allowed at City Thameslink.
I'll decide when I get there
Travel planners aren't programmed to allow you to walk the 8mins from EUS to St Pancras/Kings Cross, but send you the long way round on LUL. Keeps you dry I suppose but I suspect you'll walk just as far in LUL tunnels by the time you're finished.

 

[bb21]

Or to be absolutely in the clear
SNR Single London St Pancras to London Waterloo East £1.70
No restrictions so presumably boj allowed at City Thameslink.
I'll decide when I get there
Travel planners aren't programmed to allow you to walk the 8mins from EUS to St Pancras/Kings Cross, but send you the long way round on LUL. Keeps you dry I suppose but I suspect you'll walk just as far in LUL tunnels by the time you're finished.

BoJ is definitely allowed as it is an Anytime Day Single.