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Permitted routes from Cambridge to Bury St Edmunds via Ely

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Be3G

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Hi,

First-time poster here, although I've read many a thread here in the past when I've tried to Google answers to questions I've had about ticketing. This time however, I can't find an answer so I've been forced in to the murky world of public forum-posting… ;)

I soon plan on making the journey given in the post's title, which of course has a completely obvious permitted route owing to the fact there's a direct train between the two stations. However, that train service is every hour, but once every two hours there is a train from Ely to Bury, at which point doing CBG–ELY–BSE becomes quicker than waiting for the next direct CBG–BSE train. I am uncertain, however, whether or not it's a permitted route, because CBG and BSE both have a common routeing point of Cambridge, and I quote from the National Routeing Guide section F:

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

The emphasis there is mine: the text seems to suggest that where there is a common routeing point, then there is only one permitted route (putting aside the two stated exceptions). In other words, with a common routeing point, one has no entitlement to start considering routes that use two distinct routeing points. Also note that going via Ely does add more than three miles to the journey.

Otherwise, going via Ely would seem to be acceptable: Ely is listed as a routeing point for Bury, and an anytime day return from there to Bury is the same price as from Cambridge, so the fares check is satisfied.

Finally, we arrive at the issue of online ticket sales websites. If I search for a CBG->ELY->BSE journey on National Rail Enquiries, it tells me that two tickets are needed for that journey. But if I do the same thing on Red Spotted Hanky, it thinks it's permitted on a normal CBG->BSE ticket.

I am therefore utterly flummoxed! Can anyone shed any light on what's allowed here please?
 
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MikeWh

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I would say that it is not allowed. But, book it using RSH and select an itinerary going via Ely and you should be OK. You can't reserve seats, but print out the itinerary to show anyone who questions it en-route. I also tried Southeastern with the same results so it looks to be a WebTIS interpretation issue.
 

David Goddard

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Interesting one this, regarding the Ely-Cambridge- Bury triangle.

Cambridge - Bury does not appear to be valid via Ely.
Ely - Bury does not appear to be valid via Cambridge.

Peterborough to Bury can be used via Cambridge however.
Clearly led by routing points etc
 

lemonic

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I would be very surprised if any guards didn't accept your Bury St Edmunds to Cambridge ticket via Ely. It may not be strictly permitted, but it is reasonable, in some cases it is the quickest route and some journey planners allow it.
 

soil

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Routeing Guide is quite clear that you must take shortest route (or within 3 miles), or direct train.

Waterbeach - BSE has the same fares (but not Off-peak return - there is the off-peak day return).

Distances:

Waterbeach-Ely 9 1/2 miles
Ely-BSE 24 1/2 miles

Total = 33 3/4 miles

Waterbeach-Cambridge 5 1/4 miles
Cambridge-BSE 29 1/4 miles
Total = 34 1/2 miles

So Waterbeach-BSE is valid for travel Cambridge - BSE, and if you wanted to return via Ely you would need a zero excess to continue on to Cambridge I believe.
 

Be3G

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Thanks very much for your replies. The printing off of an itinerary is an interesting suggestion, although I don't want to buy tickets online (it'll be a last-minute thing if/when I go) but hopefully the combination of an online itinerary plus station-purchased tickets would still work.

I'm also inclined to agree with you Aleksander that via Ely is a reasonable route, namely for the reason that as you say it is at times the quickest. I was thinking that I might just go that route anyway, and if I'm told off try invoking the disputed routeing procedure – but I can find no information about whether anyone's ever had any luck with that or not so I'm not sure I feel like risking it!

soil: it is quite clear, yes… but I wondered if it really meant to exclude the possibility of using two routeing points instead when there is a common one; I'd be surprised if there aren't other examples in the country where there's a similar situation to the one I'm confused about. Or perhaps when there are such situations, ATOC just cover them with easements (if they're in a charitable mood).
 

soil

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For one of the examples there are three common routeing points, and it explains that you must still use the shortest route.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Sorry but I started reading this with some incredulity.
Through train Cambridge to Bury? First I've heard of it.
Must at least involve a change at Manchester...

I used to live in North Staffordshire, where Newcastle means Newcastle-under-Lyme, not the other place (and S-o-T means Stoke on Trent, not Stockton on Tees).
Worth another thread, perhaps...
 

yorkie

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Yes, the Bury in Lancashire is surely much more well known, so I will change the thread title accordingly.

If a route looks reasonable (to the guard, that is!) then the ticket will be accepted irrespective of archaic rules. It is only if the route looks less than reasonable that a guard is likely to question it. If National Rail Enquiries shows it as being valid on one ticket then that is good evidence that can be worth bringing with you.
 

Be3G

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Apologies, I had no idea there was actually a station called Bury too. I should perhaps explain that I'm not any kind of nationwide rail expert, I'm just a keen public transport user who hates paying more than he has to for something…

Anyway, I actually did this journey today – on an off-peak day return, which would have failed the routeing point fare check by a few pence to boot. (For some reason the anytime fares are the same to BSE from Ely and CBG, but not the off-peak one.) The ticket wasn't checked between CBG and Ely, but I'm pleased to report that the friendly Greater Anglia guard on the train to Bury had no issues with the ticket. Following advice on this thread however, I did arm myself with a printout from redspottedhanky.com just in case!
 

yorkie

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No problem regarding Bury :) (Incidentally Bury itself used to be National Rail but is now part of Metrolink, there is also a preserved railway at Bolton St station in Bury too ).

And as for the fares check rule, it does not matter what ticket you hold. The comparisons are always made on single fares of the named types, and if one passes then it is appropriate. Also, just to add to the confusion, the booking engines compare the fares how they were in 1996. Quite frankly we cannot be expected to know all this; if a booking engine says it's valid and it is booked online and a printout taken then it should be considered valid, end of. And some people have gone via Scotland on tickets between stations in England and been accepted, when the booking engines allow it.
 

Be3G

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Ah yes, good point – an off-peak day single can be used for comparisons, but there isn't such a fare for the journey I was talking about, so I should have compared using an anytime single anyway. Still learning!
 
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