Permitted routes on a Sheffield York season ticket

[CaptainHaddock]

I’ve recently started a new job in York and have a Sheffield - York season ticket, and wondered if anyone who can get their head around the National Routeing Guide can tell me if a couple of unusual routes are permitted.

1. Sheffield – Penistone – Huddersfield (change) Huddersfield – York
2. Sheffield – Leeds (change) Leeds – Harrogate - York.

I have checked these routes on www.trainscanbecheaper.info and it says they ARE permitted but of course this is not an official source of information so I could do with a bit of help!

(BTW I don’t intend to commute via these routes; I normally take the direct Cross Country via either Donny or Leeds, The reason I ask is I do a lot of walking and cycling and both the Penistone and Harrogate lines have some very good walks and rides nearby!)

 

[John @ home]

1. Sheffield – Penistone – Huddersfield (change) Huddersfield – York

This is Permitted by map combination TP+SH.

2. Sheffield – Leeds (change) Leeds – Harrogate - York.

This is Permitted by map combination NE+YL.

 

[telstarbox]

You can also do

Sheffield - Doncaster - Selby - York using maps YL + ER

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/Maps.pdf

 

[34D]

Perhaps worth mentioning that Dronfield (or Dore) to York are the same £86.50 weekly price as Sheffield. May help with weekend trips south or west?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

This is Permitted by map combination TP+SH.This is Permitted by map combination NE+YL.

Many thanks, but is it really as simple as that? That if your routes appear on a map combination then it's valid? I always thought the Routeing Guide was a lot more complicated than that!

To muddy the waters further, if I return to www.trainscanbecheaper.info, the "permitted routes" section tells me that Sheffield to York via Harrogate is valid, yet Sheffield to York via Horsforth isn't. I get the message;
"Route doubles back through: LEEDS, BURLEY PARK, HEADINGLEY
No route on SH+TP or YL+NE or YL+ER
27.91m over min distance"

Likewise, Sheffield to York via Huddersfield is shown as permitted yet Sheffield to York via Penistone isn't. This time the message is
"Route doubles back through: BARNSLEY, DODWORTH, SILKSTONE COMMON
No route on SH+TP or YL+NE or YL+ER
31.35m over min distance"

Is it any wonder I'm confused?!!!!

 

[Ebore]

To muddy the waters further, if I return to www.trainscanbecheaper.info, the "permitted routes" section tells me that Sheffield to York via Harrogate is valid, yet Sheffield to York via Horsforth isn't. I get the message;
"Route doubles back through: LEEDS, BURLEY PARK, HEADINGLEY
No route on SH+TP or YL+NE or YL+ER
27.91m over min distance"

This is because the shortest route from Horsforth to York is via Leeds/Garforth rather than via Harrogate/Knaresborough causing a double back between Horsforth and Leeds (not permitted on a Single/Return ticket). So via Horsforth shows as not being permitted but via Horsforth and Harrogate is.

Likewise, Sheffield to York via Huddersfield is shown as permitted yet Sheffield to York via Penistone isn't. This time the message is
"Route doubles back through: BARNSLEY, DODWORTH, SILKSTONE COMMON
No route on SH+TP or YL+NE or YL+ER
31.35m over min distance"

Similarly, the shortest route from Penistone to York is via Barnsley so via Penistone shows as not being permitted whereas via Penistone and Huddersfield is.

 

[John @ home]

Many thanks, but is it really as simple as that?

In this particular case, yes.

That if your routes appear on a map combination then it's valid?

Much of the complication with the Routeing Guide is involved with determining which Routeing Points are appropriate for a particular journey. That is resolved using the "fares check". But in this instance Sheffield is a member of Sheffield Group Routeing Point and York is a Routeing Point. So we don't need to bother with the "fares check". We can go straight to looking up the Permitted Route combination(s) in the Permitted Route Identifier, then examining the appropriate Maps.

I always thought the Routeing Guide was a lot more complicated than that!

The Routeing Guide is very complicated. Have you thought of coming to one of our Fares Workshops?

 

[furlong]

Likewise, Sheffield to York via Huddersfield is shown as permitted yet Sheffield to York via Penistone isn't. This time the message is
"Route doubles back through: BARNSLEY, DODWORTH, SILKSTONE COMMON
No route on SH+TP or YL+NE or YL+ER
31.35m over min distance"

Is it any wonder I'm confused?!!!!

If you "Show Full Route" you can see that when you tell that particular website "Via Penistone" it's not including Huddersfield in the route it's checking, but when you tell it Hudderfield it does include Penistone.

 

[Eagle]

Sheffield to York via Horsforth isn't. I get the message;
"Route doubles back through: LEEDS, BURLEY PARK, HEADINGLEY

That's because it's using the shortest or quickest route between those three points, which in this case is Sheffield–Leeds–Horsforth–back to Leeds–Garforth–York, which has a large double back, rather than the route through Harrogate you intended.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

If you "Show Full Route" you can see that when you tell that particular website "Via Penistone" it's not including Huddersfield in the route it's checking, but when you tell it Hudderfield it does include Penistone.

Hmm,

Just checked the new "Analyse all possible stations on Permitted Routes" function at trainscanbecheaper and it seems the new Electronic Routeing Guide no longer permits Sheffield-York travel via Huddersfield. Wonder why?

 

[SickyNicky]

Sheffield to York is only permitted on map DY in the electronic routeing guide. It would seem that this is another example of erosion of routes by stealth, which is precisely what the tool at http://trainscanbecheaper.info is there to highlight.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's because it's using the shortest or quickest route between those three points, which in this case is Sheffield–Leeds–Horsforth–back to Leeds–Garforth–York, which has a large double back, rather than the route through Harrogate you intended.

Correct. When using the "is route permitted" tool, trainscanbecheaper calculates the route like this:

1. Shortest route from origin to first via point
2. Shortest route from first via point to second via point
3. Continue as (2) until the last via point
4. Shortest route from last via point to destination.

To force a particular route, it's better to select via points in the middle rather than at the ends. In this case use Harrogate rather than Horsforth.

We're open to suggestions on how we could make this more user friendly but remember that doubling back isn't necessarily a bad thing - it's OK to do within routeing groups for "interchange purposes" and sometimes you may actually want a journey that doubles back (in which case TCBC will offer a set of tickets).

 

[wellhouse]

You should also bear in mind that doubling back is permitted on valid routes with a season ticket.

You could, if you wished, travel Sheffield-Leeds-Horsforth-Leeds-Garforth-York on your season, but not with a single.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I was going to revive this thread but it seems it's been closed.

Anyway, I'm back working in York on a Sheffield-York season ticket and was looking forward to trying out all the permitted routes on my journey home, specifically York-Harrogate-Leeds-Sheffield and York-Huddersfield-Barnsley-Sheffield.

However it would seem the Routeing Guide has been amended since my last thread 18 months ago, and if I'm reading it right, these routes are no longer permitted. John@Home's post and links appear to no longer be correct. I've also tried this route on the EastCoast website and get a "No fares available for this journey" error message.

Assuming I'm reading it right, other than the direct services, the only interesting route now permitted is to go via Selby.

I'll freely admit I'm no expert on routings so I could be reading it wrong. Could anyone cleverer than me clarify which routes are now permitted?

 

[kieron]

I'll freely admit I'm no expert on routings so I could be reading it wrong. Could anyone cleverer than me clarify which routes are now permitted?

Sheffield-York is only valid on map DY now. That allows travel via Harrogate, but not Huddersfield (Barnsley's fine, but not Dodworth). The easiest way to see exactly what routes are allowed for this route may be to look at the map on ATOC's site.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Sheffield-York is only valid on map DY now. That allows travel via Harrogate, but not Huddersfield (Barnsley's fine, but not Dodworth). The easiest way to see exactly what routes are allowed for this route may be to look at the map on ATOC's site.

Thanks for that Kieron. As I say, I'm no expert on the routeing guide and when I being up map DY, there's a red connecting line from Routeing Group Leeds to Routeing Point York direct but not going through Harrogate. How do I find proof that a Sheffield-York ticket can be used via Harrogate?

 

[Starmill]

Journeys from Leeds or York to Sheffield are quite reasonable, in my opinion, to go via Huddersfield. I rather doubt you'd experience a problem, although it does seem not to be permitted by the RG

 

[yorkie]

ATOC keep removing the via Huddersfield routeing. How about an FOI to the DfT asking why they approved the removal of it again, despite Passenger Focus getting it reinstated a few years ago?

Ask for a date and reason why this occurred, and what steps will be taken to ensure it won't happen again.

Also log a complaint with Passenger Focus, and get Anthony Smith to start doing something to justify his fatcat salary (which rose from £95k to £122k in 2012)

PF should be monitoring changes and should be lodging objections to this sort of nonsense. DfT shouldn't be approving them either.

 

[kieron]

Thanks for that Kieron. As I say, I'm no expert on the routeing guide and when I being up map DY, there's a red connecting line from Routeing Group Leeds to Routeing Point York direct but not going through Harrogate. How do I find proof that a Sheffield-York ticket can be used via Harrogate?

The line seems to go through Tadcaster, which would be a little problematic on a train. The way these maps work is that a line between two routeing points (such as Leeds and York) means that you can travel on any route between the stations which doesn't pass through a routeing point in between them.

You can't go from Leeds to York via South Milford and Selby, as Selby is a routeing point. You can go via Ulleskelf or Harrogate, as they are not routeing points and none of the stations between them and Leeds or York are either.

There is a list of routeing points here, but it also includes some stations (such as Harrogate) which are not routeing points, and you'd need to check another file to find out which is which. For instance, if you check map LS, it does show Harrogate, but shows it as an "Interchange" and not a "Routeing Point" or a "Routeing Group". This shows that it isn't a routeing point.

Sadly, there isn't a map showing all of the routeing points on the site. I hope this makes the explanation a bit clearer, anyway.

 

[John @ home]

I'm back working in York on a Sheffield-York season ticket and was looking forward to trying out all the permitted routes on my journey home, specifically York-Harrogate-Leeds-Sheffield and York-Huddersfield-Barnsley-Sheffield.

However it would seem the Routeing Guide has been amended since my last thread 18 months ago, and if I'm reading it right, these routes are no longer permitted. John@Home's post and links appear to no longer be correct.

Travel between York and Sheffield via Huddersfield was permitted until 10 September 2008. When its removal was drawn to my attention, I wrote on 2 July 2009 to Passenger Focus asking them to seek to have it restored as a permitted route. They replied:

21 July 2009

This change had not come to our attention and we welcome your timely intervention as having alerted us to it. I contacted the Department for Transport about this as soon as your message was received.

The Department has advised that ATOC will amend the flow to which you refer so that it reverts to its former permissions. Apparently no formal applications for change had been made and it is unclear how this change occurred. There is a meeting with ATOC next week about the Guide and we have asked that this incident be raised to avoid any future repetition or changes occurring without formal application.

York - Sheffield via Huddersfield was restored as a permitted route from 7 August 2009.

It is therefore very disappointing that it has once again been deleted as a permitted route and that the railway industry, its regulator and its statutory passenger representative body have failed "to avoid any future repetition".

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The line seems to go through Tadcaster, which would be a little problematic on a train. The way these maps work is that a line between two routeing points (such as Leeds and York) means that you can travel on any route between the stations which doesn't pass through a routeing point in between them.

You can't go from Leeds to York via South Milford and Selby, as Selby is a routeing point. You can go via Ulleskelf or Harrogate, as they are not routeing points and none of the stations between them and Leeds or York are either.

There is a list of routeing points here, but it also includes some stations (such as Harrogate) which are not routeing points, and you'd need to check another file to find out which is which. For instance, if you check map LS, it does show Harrogate, but shows it as an "Interchange" and not a "Routeing Point" or a "Routeing Group". This shows that it isn't a routeing point.

Sadly, there isn't a map showing all of the routeing points on the site. I hope this makes the explanation a bit clearer, anyway.

Many thanks, it certainly does make it clearer. I hope the NR conductors interpret the Routeing Guide the same way!

 

[higthomas]

If you simply go onto the National Rail site and search for a ticket from Sheffield to York via Harrogate it will sell you an anytime day single from Sheffield to York, meaning that this is a valid route. If you print this out, it will be valid enough proof.

 

[yorkie]

If it wasn't valid, you'd simply get a Season to Poppleton to get the extra validity at the same price!

Anyone here have Seasons from/to places in West & South Yorkshire to/from York? If so you may wish to consider which origin/destination to use, to get maximum validity (and there are some savings to be had too), feel free to ask if you'd like some tips.

 

[pne]

We can go straight to looking up the Permitted Route combination(s) in the Permitted Route Identifier, then examining the appropriate Maps.

Bearing in mind that that file (as with the Maps.pdf available from atoc.org/clientfiles mentioned a bit further up) are from 2011.

I wonder why ATOC continues to make those old PDFs available, and why it doesn't provide new ones easily (especially the maps as a PDF).

New documents forming part of the NRG seem to be available in a ZIP file but not the maps. (Though a forum member has been making available unofficial versions corresponding, hopefully, to the website maps.)