Piccadilly Line Uxbridge branch - future improvements?

[rebmcr]

Can Whitechapel handle the longer trains from the Metroland parts of the Met line [if you're referring to Mets at Uxbridge going to Whitechapel?]; the H&C and Circle are, like the District, shorter. I thought it was places east of Aldgate which imposed the constraints that mean that SSL stock on the other lines is shorter than the Met? Or are there other such places around the central area? Actually - I guess there are, since even the 7-coach SSLs on the non-Met parts have, I think, caused difficulty in places.

Even S7 stock still has to use SDO (Selective Door Opening) at Baker Street's 6-car Circle Line platforms.

 

[Central]

Finally, a way to go direct from Uxbridge branch to Whitechapel [maybe!?]

Wasn’t there an Uxbridge-Barking service via north side of Circle at one time.

 

[MCR247]

Can Whitechapel handle the longer trains from the Metroland parts of the Met line [if you're referring to Mets at Uxbridge going to Whitechapel?]; the H&C and Circle are, like the District, shorter. I thought it was places east of Aldgate which imposed the constraints that mean that SSL stock on the other lines is shorter than the Met? Or are there other such places around the central area? Actually - I guess there are, since even the 7-coach SSLs on the non-Met parts have, I think, caused difficulty in places.

These Uxbridge services would be District Line trains, so would be S7s

 

[rocrat]

Wasn’t there an Uxbridge-Barking service via north side of Circle at one time.

Yes -- the old met line

 

[Mgameing123]

Shorter journey times mean fewer trains needed to boost the core. It is the reason why you have booked Northfields - Arnos Grove reversers. Acton - Ealing Broadway is about 15 minutes for a round trip with a quick turnaround. Acton - Uxbridge is about 70 minutes for a round trip. If a given train is doing Ealing Broadway instead of Uxbridge, it will be back in Central London before the other train has even turned around at Uxbridge. If every train you would've sent to Uxbridge reverses at Ealing Broadway, then that's a lot more trains heading back into Central London compared with travelling up and down the Uxbridge branch, thus boosting the throughput in the Core.


Chiswick Park has no platforms for the fast lines which the Piccadilly line use. If District is to only serve the Richmond branch, then there will be no trains able to stop at Chiswick Park unless the station is resited onto the Richmond branch.

Build a cord to allow Piccadilly trains on the slow line. It would most likely be not all trains that stop at Chiswick Park.

Why don’t we just keep the current situation where Piccadilly does the longer branches and District does the shorter branches. District Line to Uxbridge would be one heck of a journey.

 

[rebmcr]

Build a cord to allow Piccadilly trains on the slow line. It would most likely be not all trains that stop at Chiswick Park.

Such a chord (or even more accurately, crossover) would be a backwards step, as crossovers all along the Barons Court to Acton section have recently been removed, to separate the new 4LM signalling from the Piccadilly.

Why don’t we just keep the current situation where Piccadilly does the longer branches and District does the shorter branches. District Line to Uxbridge would be one heck of a journey.

Other than on the Metropolitan line, pretty much nobody travels along tube lines fully end-to-end. That doesn't mean lengthy services are a bad idea, because they allow many different overlapping journeys to coexist.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Other than on the Metropolitan line, pretty much nobody travels along tube lines fully end-to-end.

*pedantic mode* W&C

 

[Mgameing123]

Such a chord (or even more accurately, crossover) would be a backwards step, as crossovers all along the Barons Court to Acton section have recently been removed, to separate the new 4LM signalling from the Piccadilly.


Other than on the Metropolitan line, pretty much nobody travels along tube lines fully end-to-end. That doesn't mean lengthy services are a bad idea, because they allow many different overlapping journeys to coexist.

People living between Rayners Lane and Acton Town would likely be travelling to Central or get off at Acton Town for Heathrow branch. People between Uxbridge and Rayners Lane are most likely to use the Piccadilly line for suburban trips. District Line doing Ealing Broadway branch is logical considering how short the branch is compared to the 2 other branches.

But maybe they could reroute the Northfield terminators to Ealing Broadway as it is a major interchange.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Build a cord to allow Piccadilly trains on the slow line. It would most likely be not all trains that stop at Chiswick Park.

Would you not need a crossover just east of Chiswick Park? Then treat Chiswick Park as part of the new Ealing Broadway branch and only stop Ealing destination trains there.

 

[cle]

Would you not need a crossover just east of Chiswick Park? Then treat Chiswick Park as part of the new Ealing Broadway branch and only stop Ealing destination trains there.

I read this as everything west of Turnham Green / at Acton Town is Piccadilly.

So both Ealing Bdy and Uxbridge are Piccadilly, as well as Heathrow.

This obviously has depot implications for the district but I don’t think service concerns. Esp with a very upgraded Piccadilly with 6tph Uxbridge, 6tph Ealing, 18tph via Northfields. Or more ideally.

 

[Mgameing123]

Would you not need a crossover just east of Chiswick Park? Then treat Chiswick Park as part of the new Ealing Broadway branch and only stop Ealing destination trains there.

No as there is access to the Ealing branch on the slow Lines aswell.

I read this as everything west of Turnham Green / at Acton Town is Piccadilly.

So both Ealing Bdy and Uxbridge are Piccadilly, as well as Heathrow.

This obviously has depot implications for the district but I don’t think service concerns. Esp with a very upgraded Piccadilly with 6tph Uxbridge, 6tph Ealing, 18tph via Northfields. Or more ideally.

Couldn’t we just move the Northfields terminators to Ealing Broadway? I can’t imagine many using them after Acton Town.

 

[Basil Jet]

Would you not need a crossover just east of Chiswick Park? Then treat Chiswick Park as part of the new Ealing Broadway branch and only stop Ealing destination trains there.

I'd like them to reinstate the curve on the north side of the nature reserve, and then divert the NLL away from Richmond to terminate at Chiswick Park, and then stop everything at Chiswick Park and end late night Piccadilly service at Turnham Green.

 

[AlbertBeale]

No as there is access to the Ealing branch on the slow Lines aswell.


Couldn’t we just move the Northfields terminators to Ealing Broadway? I can’t imagine many using them after Acton Town.

Not even in the rush hours (precisely when there needs to be some relief of the overcrowded airport services)?

 

[Tester]

I do. What I also remember, in the early days of my Enthusiasm for London Underground, is not knowing that the Bakerloo only went to Watford Junction in the peaks (and then only about 4 trains each way, I think). I spent over an hour at Piccadilly Circus - at the north end of the northbound platform where the crossover is - waiting in vain to see a train heading for Watford Junction. However, I digress!

Four trains in in the morning peak and four trains out in the evening peak.

The trains stayed overnight in Croxley shed, and traincrew were Watford based.

It wasn't unusual that if a crew was on summer annual leave, 'their' train just didn't run that week!

 

[Central]

Every week there was vecancies for guards at Watford in the Traffic Circular,maybe one of the reasons the Bakerloo was cut back to Harrow and Wealdstone,was the inability to recruit staff.

 

[Mojo]

Couldn’t we just move the Northfields terminators to Ealing Broadway? I can’t imagine many using them after Acton Town.

The Piccadilly line doesn’t have a high frequency of Northfields terminators / starters except on Saturdays. It’s got three trains an hour during off peak periods on weekdays and on Sundays, but almost all the others are typically confined to start and end of the day or interpeak stablers which need to go to the depot.

As an example, if you wanted to divert Northfields services to Ealing Broadway, Ealing wouldn’t have any services during the morning peak whatsoever - its first service on a weekday wouldn’t be until after 09.30.

 

[Mgameing123]

The Piccadilly line doesn’t have a high frequency of Northfields terminators / starters except on Saturdays. It’s got three trains an hour during off peak periods on weekdays and on Sundays, but almost all the others are typically confined to start and end of the day or interpeak stablers which need to go to the depot.

As an example, if you wanted to divert Northfields services to Ealing Broadway, Ealing wouldn’t have any services during the morning peak whatsoever - its first service on a weekday wouldn’t be until after 09.30.

That would be fine as long as they advertise it as limited service.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I'd like them to reinstate the curve on the north side of the nature reserve, and then divert the NLL away from Richmond to terminate at Chiswick Park, and then stop everything at Chiswick Park and end late night Piccadilly service at Turnham Green.

That would remove a useful link between the NLL and national rail at Richmond

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'd like them to reinstate the curve on the north side of the nature reserve, and then divert the NLL away from Richmond to terminate at Chiswick Park, and then stop everything at Chiswick Park and end late night Piccadilly service at Turnham Green.

I think if you wanted to do something like that, it would make more sense to build a new interchange station where the NLL crosses the District/Piccadilly, which would replace both Chiswick Park and South Action stations. That would provide all the benefits of your proposal while also keeping the NLL link to Richmond. If Piccadilly trains stopped at the new station, it would also provide better links from Richmond/SW London to Heathrow as well as Ealing, without having to double back from Hammersmith.

 

[Mgameing123]

Not even in the rush hours (precisely when there needs to be some relief of the overcrowded airport services)?

No as it’s only like 2 small suburban stations these trains serve. Using these trains to boost services to Ealing Broadway would be much better.

 

[Silent]

I'd like them to reinstate the curve on the north side of the nature reserve, and then divert the NLL away from Richmond to terminate at Chiswick Park, and then stop everything at Chiswick Park and end late night Piccadilly service at Turnham Green.

As I use to work near Richmond I think it needs more rail links to the north of London. If the NLL had issues it meant I would be 1 hour late to work.

 

[Edsmith]

I was wondering if there were any plans to improve the service on this branch of the Piccadilly, what with the 2024 Stock arriving soon and the potential resignalling of the line. At present there's 6tph off-peak between Acton Town and Rayners Lane, of which 3tph continue to Uxbridge. While an excellent service by any other city's metrics, this is relatively low frequency by tube standards. It seems adequate for the meantime (and the Metropolitan takes most of the strain past Rayners Lane anyway), but there are huge new developments going up around Alperton and the south of Wembley which will certainly add to passenger numbers.

The branch has always been a hostage to fate in a way, given that Hounslow and Heathrow require an intensive service.

I think 3tph on the Piccadilly Line only go to Uxbridge for operational reasons rather than because of any demand to avoid possible delays at Rayners Lane. Many years ago it was peak hour only to Uxbridge.

 

[cle]

No as it’s only like 2 small suburban stations these trains serve. Using these trains to boost services to Ealing Broadway would be much better.

those stations don’t have any other service. Ealing Broadway doesn’t really need this, it’s a mean to an end of improvements elsewhere.

Frankly I’d sooner double the Heathrow service.

 

[xtmw]

Ealing Broadway has regular Central, Lizzy & NR services. I agree the Heathrow service should be improved. I think Lizzy only has 6tph going into Heathrow as well.

 

[Wolfie]

I'd like them to reinstate the curve on the north side of the nature reserve, and then divert the NLL away from Richmond to terminate at Chiswick Park, and then stop everything at Chiswick Park and end late night Piccadilly service at Turnham Green.

What does this actually gain? A lot of spend and inconvenience for precious little tangible.

That would remove a useful link between the NLL and national rail at Richmond

Absolutely.

 

[Basil Jet]

What does this actually gain? A lot of spend and inconvenience for precious little tangible.

It would create an interchange served by every railway in the area, and allow NLL passengers to reach Heathrow without doing the "Gunnersbury Shuffle".

 

[Wolfie]

It would create an interchange served by every railway in the area, and allow NLL passengers to reach Heathrow without doing the "Gunnersbury Shuffle".

As someone who uses both the NLL and the ELL on a daily basis l would do the "Whitechapel shuffle" to get to Heathrow every time.

 

[BrianW]

It would create an interchange served by every railway in the area, and allow NLL passengers to reach Heathrow without doing the "Gunnersbury Shuffle".

Sadly, I guess it would need a heroic vision on a Victorian scale to create a Bollo Interchange Station at this point, in geography and history:

Chiswick park station

www.google.com

 

[Mr. SW]

No need for an interchange at Chiswick Park. For local journeys, it's quicker to walk between South Acton and Acton Town down Bollo Lane. For the airport and if you're truly desperate, catch the bus from Richmond.** Better still, don't take the NLL in the first place.
If the proposed station at Old Oak Common Lane is constructed, then you'll be able to change from the NLL at the HS station onto the Elizabeth Line. Would be a bit of a walk though.

** This is a joke.

 

[Mgameing123]

Sadly, I guess it would need a heroic vision on a Victorian scale to create a Bollo Interchange Station at this point, in geography and history:

Chiswick park station

www.google.com

If we build Bollo Lane Interchange. Would this mean relocating Chiswick Park onto the Richmond branch and moving Turnham Green stop on Piccadilly Line to Bollo Lane?