Pilot Engines

[robert thomas]

Miles Platting bank....one and half miles from the platform ends at Manchester Victoria and 1 in 44 at its steepest.. Even we'll into diesel days there were two or three banking engines waiting in the middle road at Vic.

I believe that - contrary to the usual GWR practice of piloting from the front - pannier tanks were used for banking freight trains from Stourbridge Junction up to Old Hill.... although I'm open to correction on that.

There were numerous places where the GWR/WR banked trains

 

[ac6000cw]

Would there be occasions where the two drivers (the lead train and the banker) would need to communicate whilst on the move? and if so, how? some whistle code? e.g. to say "More power".

Yes, whistle/horn codes would be the normal method.

The distance between the front and back of a long freight train (and that the two crews might be out-of-sight of each other) probably made it the only practical form of instant communication before radio comms became commonplace. Don't forget that on unbraked or partially brake fitted freight trains, the driver would also use whistle signals to communicate with the guard in the brake van (e.g. to tell them to apply or release the van handbrake).

 

[matchmaker]

There was actually a procedure in the days of 101s holding down all the local services to Falkirk Grahamston, Stirling, etc. If an inbound train had one engine out, this was advised forward, a loco was sent down from Eastfield to Queen Street, the dmu was called on into the same platform, and the loco banked the unit back up to the depot. And another dmu was sent down to an adjacent platform to continue the diagram.

My only 101 departure ever from Queen Street was a substitute for the 2 x 27 push-pull to Edinburgh. Only three cars, and with standees. It was probably doing 20-25 mph by the top.

The local instructions actually stated that a dmu having less than a certain number of working engines (table in the Sectional Appendix) had to be assisted in front. The loco had to have the continuous brake connected. The assistance was provided up to the top of the incline. If the unit then had sufficient engines to proceed on its diagram, the loco was released. I suspect that the procedure mentioned by @Taunton would have been used if it was decided a unit had to be removed from service.

 

[ac6000cw]

Back onto the banking engines - I watched (some time ago) a video of steam in Lancashire before 1968. It shows an unloved 8F with about eight mineral wagons trying to get up a bank without a banking engine.

The driver tried four times to get up the bank, each time staling. Every time he took the train back down the bank to try again, but he couldn't get all the way down because of a catch point. In the end, he had to split the train and come back for the rest. Normally I think it would have been expected to be able to climb the bank with so few wagons, but this was towards the end of steam and the 8F was clearly in need of some maintenance which wasn't going to happen.

It's also possible the loco had run out of sand (or the depot had!).

That actually goes a long way back, to when Hymeks were bankers! The base at Bromsgrove was closed due to little use. Because the bank was just inside the Western Region boundary a banking loco, if required, then had to be sent all the way from Gloucester.

I grew up not too far away from Bromsgrove, and occasionally visited the station in the 1970s (post-Hymek). There was often a banking loco/locos parked there, so I suspect (even if they were not crewed all the time) that they only went back to Gloucester when necessary (AFAIK they could be refueled at Worcester). No idea if they were crewed from Gloucester or Worcester.

 

[LWB]

The origin of the word pilot is maritime, and predates the advent of the railway. A pilot provides safe passage through dangerous channels and currents to get ships in and out of harbours. Railway usage borrows from the maritime origin and probably goes back almost to the beginning of railway history.

This of course is the source of the term pilot engine to describe the engine sent out a few minutes before the Royal Train. (Once upon a time)

 

[6Gman]

I believe that - contrary to the usual GWR practice of piloting from the front - pannier tanks were used for banking freight trains from Stourbridge Junction up to Old Hill.... although I'm open to correction on that.

I think perceptions of GW practice are coloured by what happened on the South Devon banks (and how heavily covered/photographed it was). My 1962 operating data folder for the Birmingham District lists 25 locations where "arrangements for assisting on inclines" existed. Of these only one (Leamington to Hatton) specified assistance at the front, the other 24 were all assistance at rear, including from Stourbridge Junction.

Yes, whistle/horn codes would be the normal method.

The distance between the front and back of a long freight train (and that the two crews might be out-of-sight of each other) probably made it the only practical form of instant communication before radio comms became commonplace. Don't forget that on unbraked or partially brake fitted freight trains, the driver would also use whistle signals to communicate with the guard in the brake van (e.g. to tell them to apply or release the van handbrake).

Also worth remembering that the crews of the banking engines at places like Bromsgrove, Beattock, Tebay and Oxenholme would be very experienced and know those few miles of track very well. They probably spent more than half their careers going up and down that damned hill!

 

[ac6000cw]

lso worth remembering that the crews of the banking engines at places like Bromsgrove, Beattock, Tebay and Oxenholme would be very experienced and know those few miles of track very well. They probably spent more than half their careers going up and down that damned hill!

Yes, I agree. I think banking trains (especially long and heavy freights) is one of those things that looks relatively easy but actually needs a lot of skill and experience to do safely and efficiently, especially on a climb with varying gradients and curvature (and bad weather/wet leaves etc.).

I have an American video which has a cab ride in manned 'pusher' set on the rear of freight climbing a twisty 2.2% gradient in Oregon. The driver was chatting to the presenter, but was also constantly keeping an eye on the gauges as well as looking ahead and making adjustments to the power controller when needed. With the pusher set comprising a pair of SD40-2 locos (equivalent to around four cl. 37s here), if you mishandled that much tractive effort I imagine things could go wrong pretty quickly...

 

[Andy873]

Also worth remembering that the crews of the banking engines at places like Bromsgrove, Beattock, Tebay and Oxenholme would be very experienced and know those few miles of track very well. They probably spent more than half their careers going up and down that damned hill!

Yes, I agree. I think banking trains (especially long and heavy freights) is one of those things that looks relatively easy but actually needs a lot of skill and experience to do safely and efficiently, especially on a climb with varying gradients and curvature (and bad weather/wet leaves etc.).

I agree too, when you sit back and think about what the two crews were doing it really does look skilful.

This begs a question especially for steam locos - would a driver who hadn't done banking before have to learn the hard way, or would an experienced driver teach them? that is, under instruction?

 

[6Gman]

I agree too, when you sit back and think about what the two crews were doing it really does look skilful.

This begs a question especially for steam locos - would a driver who hadn't done banking before have to learn the hard way, or would an experienced driver teach them? that is, under instruction?

The driver would have started as a fireman (usually at the same depot) and would have worked numerous duties as a fireman, during which the driver would explain* what he was doing, why he was doing it and would - unofficially but helpfully - pick up the shovel and let the fireman take over. Under his supervision.

If a driver transferred in from somewhere else (and I suspect this would have been rare at the depots involved#) the process of route learning would probably include guidance on banking arrangements.

* Most drivers would try to help junior colleagues to learn the job. Every shed would have its quota of awkward or miserable ******s who wouldn't, but over a period of time firemen would "learn the ropes".

# Generally speaking staff transferred out of smaller depots to larger depots and from remote depots to big city depots where there were better opportunities for promotion and remuneration. The likes of Tebay or Beattock would not generally be attractive to outsiders.

 

[01d-and]

I called in at Bromsgrove Station earlier and noticed that 'the banker' [ 66055 ] was stabled in the Tamper siding. Any idea why ? Possibly failed or maybe it's driver was out of hours and unable to return it to Bescot ??

 

[Irascible]

The driver would have started as a fireman (usually at the same depot) and would have worked numerous duties as a fireman, during which the driver would explain* what he was doing, why he was doing it and would - unofficially but helpfully - pick up the shovel and let the fireman take over. Under his supervision.

There was also the intermediate grade of passed fireman too, which was a fireman who'd qualified to drive but wasn't generally rostered as one because they lacked driving experience.

 

[norbitonflyer]

There was also the intermediate grade of passed fireman too, which was a fireman who'd qualified to drive but wasn't generally rostered as one because they lacked driving experience.

Was qualified but awaiting a vacancy in the drivers' link.

 

[Taunton]

Was qualified but awaiting a vacancy in the drivers' link.

More precisely, awaiting a permanent position for a driver. A Passed Fireman could still be given a driving turn if no other was available, sometimes even halfway through their shift, for which they would receive driver's pay for that shift. There was the same approach a level below with a Passed Cleaner, who could suddenly be given a firing turn.

Particularly relevant to a discussion on piloting because these were the very crews who would commonly be grabbed by the shed foreman for a piloting duty if suddenly needed. For this reason the GWR (the proper one), and later the WR, had a requirement that the pilot be put inside the train engine, which required some loco shunting, so the fully qualified main line driver was at the front and thus handled the brake on the train. There were some exceptions, such as from Newton Abbot to Plymouth, where it was such a common requirement that pilot crews were fully familiar with it, doing such a run every day (and occasionally twice).

 

[Gloster]

I think there was a rule, possibly only later on, that once passed firemen had reached a certain number of shifts as a driver, 150 comes into my head, they would thereafter be on a driver’s wage, although I don’t think that they had seniority until they were actually promoted into a place in the drivers’ links. No doubt shedmasters and roster clerks would do their utmost to delay this, although they would have to keep to local agreements, in order to keep the wage bill down. I have a feeling that the same applied to passed cleaners.

 

[Taunton]

I think there was a rule, possibly only later on, that once passed firemen had reached a certain number of shifts as a driver, 150 comes into my head, they would thereafter be on a driver’s wage, although I don’t think that they had seniority until they were actually promoted into a place in the drivers’ links. No doubt shedmasters and roster clerks would do their utmost to delay this, although they would have to keep to local agreements, in order to keep the wage bill down. I have a feeling that the same applied to passed cleaners.

In BR times of labour shortages the opposite might apply, and the shed foreman be only to keen to upgrade the crews when possible to give them all some more money.

 

[robert thomas]

More precisely, awaiting a permanent position for a driver. A Passed Fireman could still be given a driving turn if no other was available, sometimes even halfway through their shift, for which they would receive driver's pay for that shift. There was the same approach a level below with a Passed Cleaner, who could suddenly be given a firing turn.

Particularly relevant to a discussion on piloting because these were the very crews who would commonly be grabbed by the shed foreman for a piloting duty if suddenly needed. For this reason the GWR (the proper one), and later the WR, had a requirement that the pilot be put inside the train engine, which required some loco shunting, so the fully qualified main line driver was at the front and thus handled the brake on the train. There were some exceptions, such as from Newton Abbot to Plymouth, where it was such a common requirement that pilot crews were fully familiar with it, doing such a run every day (and occasionally twice).

See previous posts. Nothing to do with crews. Only smaller/tank engines needed to be coupled inside as a result of the Loughor accident in 1905. Even this rule didn't apply to the Severn Tunnel where tank engines routinely piloted larger engines.

 

[01d-and]

I called in at Bromsgrove Station earlier and noticed that 'the banker' [ 66055 ] was stabled in the Tamper siding. Any idea why ? Possibly failed or maybe it's driver was out of hours and unable to return it to Bescot ??

I note that a thread about Bescot yard in the Infrastructure and Stations forum suggests that the Lickey banker is now based at Toton. I guess that is a bit too far to travel to and from every shift ! MODS - please move this to another thread if deemed appropriate.

 

[Taunton]

I note that a thread about Bescot yard in the Infrastructure and Stations forum suggests that the Lickey banker is now based at Toton. I guess that is a bit too far to travel to and from every shift !

Is it any further than in old Western Region days after dieselisation when they closed the depot at Bromsgrove, and the Class 37 bankers were then supplied from Gloucester? They were only sent out as and when required, so some significant 2-way running light.

The boundary between WR and LMR was just beyond the top of the bank, with both Saltley and Bescot not that far beyond, but in those days each region was its own fiefdom.

 

[01d-and]

Is it any further than in old Western Region days after dieselisation when they closed the depot at Bromsgrove, and the Class 37 bankers were then supplied from Gloucester? They were only sent out as and when required, so some significant 2-way running light.

The boundary between WR and LMR was just beyond the top of the bank, with both Saltley and Bescot not that far beyond, but in those days each region was its own fiefdom.

Fair point re Gloucester. Just to add to the mix , I noticed a light engine move on RTT yesterday evening from Wolverhampton Steel Terminal to Bromsgrove.