Plan to remove Croydon rail bottleneck

[MarkyT]

One track worth of extra width is nowhere near enough for the splay needed to insert an island platform with bay between the through tracks. There would be enough space in the station itself (considering it already has that amount of platform width), but because the track curves have to be relatively gentle, extra width is needed for some distance off both ends of the platforms. New platforms have to be straight or nearly so, so the old trick of tapering the ends of the platforms no longer works.

You certainly can't get away with some of the curvature of old, but TSIs allow for curvature down to 300m radius. Unfortunately, UK has chosen to limit new platforms to a minimum of 1000m radius, which is certainly rational for entirely new stations, but makes adding new platforms to some existing stations almost impossible. Extensions are allowed at 500m radius though, so if a third through platform at West Croydon could be classified as an extension, splays to achieve widening, with appropriate correcting curves might be justifiable. A good example of wholly British red tape adding significantly to fairly permissive European base requirements. A good one to challenge in my view, as long as stepping distance and dispatch visibility concerns can be wholly mitigated.

https://catalogues.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/RIS-7016-INS%20Iss%201.1.pdf

This document sets out requirements for the design and maintenance of station platforms for their safe interface with track, trains and buffer stops.

 

[Peter Sarf]

One track worth of extra width is nowhere near enough for the splay needed to insert an island platform with bay between the through tracks. There would be enough space in the station itself (considering it already has that amount of platform width), but because the track curves have to be relatively gentle, extra width is needed for some distance off both ends of the platforms. New platforms have to be straight or nearly so, so the old trick of tapering the ends of the platforms no longer works.

Hrrumpf !. So any existing station on a curving site requiring improvement is going to be difficult !.

I should add that there is a bit of wasted space behind the down platform as it turns into a cutting nearer the SW end and so a wall could replace that. But I am trying to visualise if that gives any useful space on the correct side of the bend(s).

Furthermore, at the NE end on the SE side, there is scope to take a bit of land as there are some railway buildings and an access road - there must have been a small goods yard there ?. So maybe the platforms could go straighter and then a bit of a sharp bend at the NE throat to re-gain the correct formation ?.

You can still taper platforms, as has been done at London Bridge for example. But not as much as those with ‘grandfather rights’, either in narrowness or the proportion of the platform where it applies. Raynes Park up platform is the best example I know of.

So a bit of leeway - but enough ?.

You certainly can't get away with some of the curvature of old, but TSIs allow for curvature down to 300m radius. Unfortunately, UK has chosen to limit new platforms to a minimum of 1000m radius, which is certainly rational for entirely new stations, but makes adding new platforms to some existing stations almost impossible. Extensions are allowed at 500m radius though, so if a third through platform at West Croydon could be classified as an extension, splays to achieve widening, with appropriate correcting curves might be justifiable. A good example of wholly British red tape adding significantly to fairly permissive European base requirements. A good one to challenge in my view, as long as stepping distance and dispatch visibility concerns can be wholly mitigated.

https://catalogues.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/RIS-7016-INS%20Iss%201.1.pdf

So we can blame Europe for NOT overriding the UKs over strict rules !.

 

[Bald Rick]

So we can blame Europe for NOT overriding the UKs over strict rules !.

Bloody Europeans; coming over here with their entirely sensible rules.

 

[MarkyT]

So we can blame Europe for NOT overriding the UKs over strict rules !.

Well in the TSIs, the preferably straight, 1000m radius limit requirement is for new HIGH SPEED railways, which I hardly think is applicable to suburban sites like West Croydon! Of course if you classify your new railway as a tramway instead you could notionally have a boarding area on a steep climbing 20m radius corkscrew in the middle of the High Street, but that's a different story. I think a combination of modern techniques such as carriage side video cameras for door observation and vehicle gap filler steps for stepping distance should allow some greater flexibility on this for conventional heavy rail, where it is expedient to make rail projects affordable and useful. It's absurd to have to move a proposed new station a mile out of town in order to find a bit of track straight and level enough, when the alignment actually passes a stones-throw from the big market square and bus interchange but is unfortunately on a series of unsuitable curves anywhere nearby.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Bloody Europeans; coming over here with their entirely sensible rules.

- like button please.

Well in the TSIs, the preferably straight, 1000m radius limit requirement is for new HIGH SPEED railways, which I hardly think is applicable to suburban sites like West Croydon! Of course if you classify your new railway as a tramway instead you could notionally have a boarding area on a steep climbing 20m radius corkscrew in the middle of the High Street, but that's a different story. I think a combination of modern techniques such as carriage side video cameras for door observation and vehicle gap filler steps for stepping distance should allow some greater flexibility on this for conventional heavy rail, where it is expedient to make rail projects affordable and useful. It's absurd to have to move a proposed new station a mile out of town in order to find a bit of track straight and level enough, when the alignment actually passes a stones-throw from the big market square and bus interchange but is unfortunately on a series of unsuitable curves anywhere nearby.

Good job i mentioned slipping the tram line down the side of the station. Er well I mean "merely" slipping a new West Croydon platform down the side of the tram lines .

Back to the East side of things - I wonder how much can be done early on ?.

The extra tram line would be useful if it worked Clockwise as then all trams would run up Dingwall Road so nearer to the soon to be central footbridge.

Regarding the new/current footbridge. Does it have a lift from the bridge down to the ground level ?. I know the platforms have lifts but I feel I have not noticed one at the public end. Note ground level more or less matches the bridge deck level from the George Street point of view.

 

[Bald Rick]

Regarding the new/current footbridge. Does it have a lift from the bridge down to the ground level ?. I know the platforms have lifts but I feel I have not noticed one at the public end. Note ground level more or less matches the bridge deck level from the George Street point of view.

Yes there’s a lift.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes there’s a lift.

Thanks, I must be get old.

 

[Railcar]

The new/current footbridge at East Croydon was designed to have sufficient headroom for OHLE (so more steps to climb). Is that a general policy for new station footbridges in third rail land?

Some work was done at Wallington a year or so ago at the point just west of the station where the reversing siding is (hopefully) to be reinstated. There used to be a siding there and (very usefully) it was between the running tracks. There is sufficient length available to accomodate a 10-car 377. The work seems to have been no more, at this stage, than to provide a foot crossing (and perhaps a barrow crossing) over the tracks.

 

[swt_passenger]

The new/current footbridge at East Croydon was designed to have sufficient headroom for OHLE (so more steps to climb). Is that a general policy for new station footbridges in third rail land?

I’d say yes, we discussed it a few years ago after a number of examples of the usual modular footbridges were built with obvious extra height, examples near me include Fratton, Fareham, Winchester, Southampton Airport and Brockenhurst...

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d say yes, we discussed it a few years ago after a number of examples of the usual modular footbridges were built with obvious extra height, examples near me include Fratton, Fareham, Winchester, Southampton Airport and Brockenhurst...

Indeed; it’s the policy for new bridges over the railway anywhere, regardless of who is paying for them.

 

[swt_passenger]

London Reconnections have done an updated article about what is now the “East Croydon To Selhurst Junction Capacity Enhancement scheme”. Not new information as such, but it’s basically a good summary of what we were discussing earlier this month, with updates to their track diagram:

“As far as we can tell, there are three changes of significance. They are:

An eighth track under Windmill Bridge (up from seven).

A conflict free route from the Victoria Down Fast to the Down Slow at East Croydon has been added (in fact there was always passive provision for this, although this fact was not generally made public).

East Croydon station appears to have moved 100 metres to the north compared to previous plans. More accurately, the platforms now have a common alignment and existing main station entrance has been replaced by an upgraded entrance around 100 metres to the north of it.”

A Study in Sussex (part 15): East Croydon revisited - again! - London Reconnections

The leading source for independent news and analysis about transport in London and beyond. Award-winning coverage of transport infrastructure and politics alongside stories about the history of the Capital's transport networks.

www.londonreconnections.com

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thanks for posting that. Good to see a continuous 8-track link from East Croydon to the Selhurst triangle.

I had not realised 30 houses would be demolished. However from what I recall these are 2up 2down houses of low quality. The same as my "railway-mans cottage" / "artisans dwelling" !. I expect they will be replaced with an equivalent number of dwellings to the latest standards. None the less they are someones homes. But there was always going to be a lack of vacant land to play with - this is Croydon.

 

[mr_jrt]

Does go to show that when the will is there property in the way of a solution is not as insurmountable as some may suggest.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does go to show that when the will is there property in the way of a solution is not as insurmountable as some may suggest.

Property isnt insurmountable. It’s just expensive.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Property isnt insurmountable. It’s just expensive.

Yes,, and in Croydon its 30 x Very Expensive !.

Also bound to be some friction from the media. Even though those old houses are close to the spreading development of blocks of flats in Croydon.

 

[03_179]

Whilst not against the removal of the bottle neck it's going to cause a awful lot of disruption to the locals for many months (more likely years).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Whilst not against the removal of the bottle neck it's going to cause a awful lot of disruption to the locals for many months (more likely years).

I have started using Windmill Bridge every day since COVID-19 !. Its for my long detour (8.25 miles iirc) on my morning commute taking the missus to her hospital job so she has less bus travel. Still better than being on a bus full of mask-less strangers though !.

 

[03_179]

Roads like Selhurst Road, Whitehorse Road, Sydenham Road and St James' Road will be pretty much a no go due the increase of the traffic of both materials and contractors.

I can only hope the council will monitor the parking better.

 

[edwin_m]

I have started using Windmill Bridge every day since COVID-19 !. Its for my long detour (8.25 miles iirc) on my morning commute taking the missus to her hospital job so she has less bus travel. Still better than being on a bus full of mask-less strangers though !.

This proposal is very early stage yet. Despite an announcement this morning that Boris wants to speed up big schemes, it will be several years before anything happens on the ground. So very unlikely you will still be needing to take this route by then.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Roads like Selhurst Road, Whitehorse Road, Sydenham Road and St James' Road will be pretty much a no go due the increase of the traffic of both materials and contractors.

I can only hope the council will monitor the parking better.

The pinch points will be the bridges either side of East Croydon i.e.

To the North of East Croydon :-
Tennison Road (over the London Bridge tracks)
PLUS
Selhurst Road (under the Victoria tracks).

To the South of East Croydon :-
The Barclay Road - Fairfield Road bridge (that I use).

And then the roads leading to the above, some of which you mention.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This proposal is very early stage yet. Despite an announcement this morning that Boris wants to speed up big schemes, it will be several years before anything happens on the ground. So very unlikely you will still be needing to take this route by then.

True of course. We really hope COVID-19 has long gone before the works start. Or they won't be needed !.

 

[DJ_K666]

Yes,, and in Croydon its 30 x Very Expensive !.

Also bound to be some friction from the media. Even though those old houses are close to the spreading development of blocks of flats in Croydon.

Unfortunately modern replacements tend to be rabbit hutches with no storage and no gardens. Scarecely a replacement in my view. I do think the CPO laws need to be overhauled, especially when they will sweeten the pill (Lets take Swanbourne station for instance, someone who has lived there for years has to be evicted, so perhaps in some cases dismantling and re-erection maybe 50 yards away is better)

 

[Peter Sarf]

Unfortunately modern replacements tend to be rabbit hutches with no storage and no gardens. Scarecely a replacement in my view. I do think the CPO laws need to be overhauled, especially when they will sweeten the pill (Lets take Swanbourne station for instance, someone who has lived there for years has to be evicted, so perhaps in some cases dismantling and re-erection maybe 50 yards away is better)

Not much spare land left in Croydon unfortunately. Easiest (er) might be to re-erect them after the work is done - but I think the ends of the gardens are making way for the extra tracks. From what I recall the affected houses are old (1800s) and will have little/no foundations - if they are like mine. I agree modern houses do have smaller gardens.

 

[SECR263]

Roads like Selhurst Road, Whitehorse Road, Sydenham Road and St James' Road will be pretty much a no go due the increase of the traffic of both materials and contractors.

I can only hope the council will monitor the parking better.

Don't worry about parking Croydon Council are so anti car/lorry/van that it will be pedestrianised by then. They have a rule that all cars with combustion engines have to pay a pollution charge, even pure electric or hybrid.

 

[DJ_K666]

Not much spare land left in Croydon unfortunately. Easiest (er) might be to re-erect them after the work is done - but I think the ends of the gardens are making way for the extra tracks. From what I recall the affected houses are old (1800s) and will have little/no foundations - if they are like mine. I agree modern houses do have smaller gardens.

I'll admit Croydon is a bit of a strange area to be making major changes but looking at the site on Google maps the houses appear to be right up by Windmill Bridge. Surely thats more than 100 yards north but I suppose points, etc. Will the Ramp entrances stay at the south end as a tram interchange?

 

[hwl]

I'll admit Croydon is a bit of a strange area to be making major changes but looking at the site on Google maps the houses appear to be right up by Windmill Bridge. Surely thats more than 100 yards north but I suppose points, etc. Will the Ramp entrances stay at the south end as a tram interchange?

It is the busiest rail traffic area in the UK.
8 tracks are rather wider than 5 tracks hence the gardens go and then you need construction space.

The LR article linked above answers all this in huge detail (and much more).

 

[hwl]

Not much spare land left in Croydon unfortunately. Easiest (er) might be to re-erect them after the work is done - but I think the ends of the gardens are making way for the extra tracks. From what I recall the affected houses are old (1800s) and will have little/no foundations - if they are like mine. I agree modern houses do have smaller gardens.

They are indeed relatively poorly constructed railway workers houses.

 

[hwl]

Roads like Selhurst Road, Whitehorse Road, Sydenham Road and St James' Road will be pretty much a no go due the increase of the traffic of both materials and contractors.

I can only hope the council will monitor the parking better.

The plan is plenty of haul roads would be constructed to help minimise this.

 

[DJ_K666]

They are indeed relatively poorly constructed railway workers houses.

fair enough. If any are particularly historic would dismantling (and numbering) the bricks be better so they could be re-erected elsewhere later?

 

[Bald Rick]

fair enough. If any are particularly historic would dismantling (and numbering) the bricks be better so they could be re-erected elsewhere later?

They are not of historic interest, there are plenty others around.

Sometimes projects can’t win - on the one hand it’s ‘why can’t you do it more quickly’ and on the other ‘dismantle this house brick by brick so it can be built elesewhere’