Plan to remove Croydon rail bottleneck

[InOban]

If they were built as railway workers houses, do they still belong to either NR or a TOC?

 

[InOban]

Deleted

 

[edwin_m]

I'll admit Croydon is a bit of a strange area to be making major changes but looking at the site on Google maps the houses appear to be right up by Windmill Bridge. Surely thats more than 100 yards north but I suppose points, etc. Will the Ramp entrances stay at the south end as a tram interchange?

The capacity bottleneck runs all the way from south of East Croydon through the junctions north of Windmill Bridge Road and up to the stations at Norwood Junction and Selhurst. There's not much point in widening only part of that section as the rest of it would still be a limit on capacity. Although it appears the proposal to re-model Norwood Junction can be done or not done separately from the work further south.

The southern ends of the platforms will be well north of where they are now, so the existing building on George Street and its ramps can't connect to them and will be demolished. The new southern entrance will be built around the current northern footbridge with a new second entrance even further north on Lansdowne Road. The idea is to provide some high level walkways from the new southern entrance to the trams on George Street - the interchange will be further but with more space it will be much less crowded than today and may have room to build extra tram platforms.

 

[edwin_m]

If they were built as railway workers houses, do they still belong to either NR or a TOC?

Almost certainly not. Even if they were still owned by British Rail at privatization only operational property was passed to Railtrack and ultimately NR. TOCs don't own anything, although they have leases on their stations and depots for the terms of their franchises. It might help the scheme a bit if all of them were still with the same landlord, as there would only be one party to negotiate with.

 

[Bald Rick]

If they were built as railway workers houses, do they still belong to either NR or a TOC?

Well some of the belong to NR now, AIUI, but that’s recent.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They are not of historic interest, there are plenty others around.

Sometimes projects can’t win - on the one hand it’s ‘why can’t you do it more quickly’ and on the other ‘dismantle this house brick by brick so it can be built elesewhere’

Yes, plenty of examples of these Jerry built two-up two-down houses in Croydon. My road comprises sixty of them. To worry about one terrace of thirty would be like trying to preserve all 508 of the class 47s.

If they were built as railway workers houses, do they still belong to either NR or a TOC?

Mine was one of those built by the Southern Railway. Most were sold in the 1970s. Most were classed as slums in the 1970s - no bathroom and only an outside loo.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Some railway terraces had to be demolished as part of the Crossrail works near Abbey Wood station.

Unless a house has very specific historical relevance it shouldn't block a scheme like this to improve a huge chunk of the south east of England. Plenty of houses got demolished when the Victorians were building the railways, and when postwar planners built up the modern road network.

I can understand local concerns that the area will be redeveloped inappropriately but allowing NR to develop sites near the railway provides a useful revenue stream and some sort of land value uplift capture. To be frank, unless houses like these are protected from development, all that would happen if NR couldn't buy them would be that some developer would come along and give the owners an offer they couldn't refuse. At that point, you end up with the same loss of traditional housing and the same sort of new development, but the railway doesn't get to benefit from the spare land during construction and it doesn't see any of the financial benefit.

The main rift with the past that new development brings is that in England, traditional housing is essentially never flatted, but in cities like London most new builds will be multi-storey buildings. In Scotland it's a little bit better because the equivalent railway housing would have been a 4-storey sandstone tenement, and that's more-or-less the same scale as what any modern developer would build to replace them.

 

[Bald Rick]

Also worth pointing out that they are not all Victoria era ‘railway cottages’. Quite a few of them appear to have been built in the 50s. Possibly because of bomb damage?

 

[Minstral25]

Don't worry about parking Croydon Council are so anti car/lorry/van that it will be pedestrianised by then. They have a rule that all cars with combustion engines have to pay a pollution charge, even pure electric or hybrid.

Whilst a Hybrid is a polluting Combustion Engine that pretends to be green - please explain where the combustion engine is on a pure electric BEV

 

[FOH]

Also worth pointing out that they are not all Victoria era ‘railway cottages’. Quite a few of them appear to have been built in the 50s. Possibly because of bomb damage?

Do you reckon this was the one?
http://bombsight.org/bombs/19949/

 

[AlbertBeale]

Some railway terraces had to be demolished as part of the Crossrail works near Abbey Wood station.

Unless a house has very specific historical relevance it shouldn't block a scheme like this to improve a huge chunk of the south east of England. Plenty of houses got demolished when the Victorians were building the railways, and when postwar planners built up the modern road network.

I can understand local concerns that the area will be redeveloped inappropriately but allowing NR to develop sites near the railway provides a useful revenue stream and some sort of land value uplift capture. To be frank, unless houses like these are protected from development, all that would happen if NR couldn't buy them would be that some developer would come along and give the owners an offer they couldn't refuse. At that point, you end up with the same loss of traditional housing and the same sort of new development, but the railway doesn't get to benefit from the spare land during construction and it doesn't see any of the financial benefit.

The main rift with the past that new development brings is that in England, traditional housing is essentially never flatted, but in cities like London most new builds will be multi-storey buildings. In Scotland it's a little bit better because the equivalent railway housing would have been a 4-storey sandstone tenement, and that's more-or-less the same scale as what any modern developer would build to replace them.

In terms of "an offer they couldn't refuse" - if it's simply a private developer's scheme, and you own the freehold where they want to build, then you certainly can refuse; and people sometimes do, irrespective of how many noughts the developer waves in front of them. (I've been involved in such a situation myself.) Compulsory purchase only comes into play when a public body decides it's necessary for public purposes (which a local authority, eg, has to demonstrate, and this can be challenged), or if such provisions are explicitly included in a law passed by parliament (such as land acquired in order to build a new railway line).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Do you reckon this was the one?
http://bombsight.org/bombs/19949/

Note that these bomb maps aren't totally reliable at the largest scale they show - ie they can suggest precision that isn't there. A bomb site on my road - which was still there, undeveloped, for years after I moved in (hence I know exactly where it was) shows up as being on a different block (which wasn't damaged in the war) on this bomb map.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you reckon this was the one?
http://bombsight.org/bombs/19949/

No, more likely this one.

High Explosive Bomb dropped near Gloucester Road during the London Blitz

A High Explosive Bomb dropped near Gloucester Road during the London Blitz. Discover London during WW2 bombing raids, exploring maps, images and memories. The Bomb Sight web map and mobile app reveals WW2 bomb census maps between 7/10/1940 and 06/06/1941, previously available only by viewing...

bombsight.org

Pure speculation on my part though.

 

[NotATrainspott]

In terms of "an offer they couldn't refuse" - if it's simply a private developer's scheme, and you own the freehold where they want to build, then you certainly can refuse; and people sometimes do, irrespective of how many noughts the developer waves in front of them. (I've been involved in such a situation myself.) Compulsory purchase only comes into play when a public body decides it's necessary for public purposes (which a local authority, eg, has to demonstrate, and this can be challenged), or if such provisions are explicitly included in a law passed by parliament (such as land acquired in order to build a new railway line).

I know. 'An offer they can't refuse' would be one where the developer is willing to pay silly amounts for a property, possibly after buying many neighbouring ones and locking in the area for development.

While people often get very worried about compulsory purchase of homes, it's worth considering the number of these homes which are now privately rented out. The days of tenants or owner-occupiers being in one of these houses for decades are long gone. A critical problem in London is that low-medium density homes like these block development in sites which are ripe for something more like a Scottish tenement, even if not a massive multi-storey tower. 4-6 storey buildings are rarely overbearing when designed as part of a cohesive neighbourhood, and provide much more space for modern living. With housing demand being as bad as it is, many houses built for a single family are now being subdivided into modern slum bedsits. Some of these houses were built to get entire families out of single end rooms, and yet that's essentially what they're returning to.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Do you reckon this was the one?
http://bombsight.org/bombs/19949/

No. But that is very close to where the West end / entrance of the new footbridge is.

No, more likely this one.

High Explosive Bomb dropped near Gloucester Road during the London Blitz

A High Explosive Bomb dropped near Gloucester Road during the London Blitz. Discover London during WW2 bombing raids, exploring maps, images and memories. The Bomb Sight web map and mobile app reveals WW2 bomb census maps between 7/10/1940 and 06/06/1941, previously available only by viewing...

bombsight.org

Pure speculation on my part though.

That looks like a better bet.

I know. 'An offer they can't refuse' would be one where the developer is willing to pay silly amounts for a property, possibly after buying many neighbouring ones and locking in the area for development.

While people often get very worried about compulsory purchase of homes, it's worth considering the number of these homes which are now privately rented out. The days of tenants or owner-occupiers being in one of these houses for decades are long gone. A critical problem in London is that low-medium density homes like these block development in sites which are ripe for something more like a Scottish tenement, even if not a massive multi-storey tower. 4-6 storey buildings are rarely overbearing when designed as part of a cohesive neighbourhood, and provide much more space for modern living. With housing demand being as bad as it is, many houses built for a single family are now being subdivided into modern slum bedsits. Some of these houses were built to get entire families out of single end rooms, and yet that's essentially what they're returning to.

I have noticed a lot of houses around with completely overgrown gardens. Does make me wonder if the residents of these would be better off in a flat.

 

[Killingworth]

East Croydon to Selhurst Junction Capacity Enhancement Scheme

A friend living within sight of the Brighton line has forwarded the link above. I don't know how old it may be so apologies if this is stale news.

Phase 2 Consultation

Network Rail is proposing to upgrade the Brighton Main Line – one of the busiest and most congested routes in the country – to provide more reliable, more frequent and faster services.
Key to the upgrade are major proposals to remove the most challenging bottleneck on Britain’s railway network, the ‘East Croydon to Selhurst Junction Capacity Enhancement Scheme’ (the Scheme).

Unblocking the Croydon bottleneck

We are now speaking with passengers and the public about our proposals and would like to hear your views.
At the time of this consultation, the Scheme is unfunded. While we develop our plans, we will continue to build the case for investment in this Scheme and in this vital growth corridor.
This website provides information on the Scheme, the potential benefits, how we propose to build it, the planning process we will go through and how you can have your say.
You can download a printable version of the content of this website from the button below.


Scheme animation video

You can view an animated overview of our Scheme proposals in the video below. We suggest viewing this (with or without audio) before further exploring the site content to help set the scene.

 

[swt_passenger]

A friend living within sight of the Brighton line has forwarded the link above. I don't know how old it may be so apologies if this is stale news.

I don’t think that exact page has been directly linked to before, but it’s basically what’s been under discussion since May.
Back in post #81 there was a direct link to the summary “printable booklet”.
Then post #104 links to the web page “above” the one you’ve found.

A useful reminder that the consultation is still open though.