Planned engineering works and Advance tickets

[marko4ever34]

Can anyone advise:

Booked on a service (VTWC) an advance ticket in good faith and left plenty time to get there. When I booked my ticket there was no issues with planned engineering works.

Arrived at Southend airport station to discover planned engineering work and a bus replacement service on part if the route - this delayed me. I was then delayed again due to central line being closed. I missed my train by 1 minute.

I thought it would just be a case of explaining my issues but since it was planned engineering work staff could not help?

I spoke to train manager on next train and he said he would be happy to let me on but I was better waiting on the next train as I would get there sooner. The problem was when I approached the barrier to speak to the train manager for the next train a revenue officer asked to see my ticket and advised he would not allow me to travel and it was up to him not the train guard.

I also have a disabled railcard and thought they would show some discretion and understanding and was very upset. I wont go into details how I got home but my question is can anyone point me to the rule book on this - I know you must travel on the train specified on advance tickets etc but is it my responsibility to check for planned engineering work and is no discretion show if I left in good time and in good faith?

Are there an further discretions/allowances for disabled card holders?

 

[30907]

If you had a ticket or tickets for the whole journey, and allowed the correct amount of time for the cross London transfer, then I believe you are in the right and it is the various TOCs' responsibility to let you travel, it is not a discretionary matter.
Perhaps you could confirm the details of your planned and actual journey and tickets?

 

[Hadders]

Can you let us know your planned itinerary, tickets held and which trains you actually caught. We will then be better able to assist.

 

[marko4ever34]

Yes sure my planned journey on a separate ticket was supposed to be

13.15 service from Southend airport to Liverpool street then changing to tube arriving at 14:38 which was available at the time of booking my London Euston to Edinburgh ticket which was at 15:30 today (change at Preston)

Instead due to engineering work that I was not aware of I had get the 13:35 train from Southend airport to Wickford then change onto a replacement bus serviced to Shenfield then a train which arrived at 15:01 into London Liverpool street. I then had to get a tube to Euston which also caused delays as central line was closed.

I was told that since it was “PLANNED” engineering work that caused my delay then I would need to buy a new ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes sure my planned journey on a separate ticket was supposed to be

13.15 service from Southend airport to Liverpool street then changing to tube arriving at 14:38 which was available at the time of booking my London Euston to Edinburgh ticket which was at 15:30 today (change at Preston)

Instead due to engineering work that I was not aware of I had get the 13:35 train from Southend airport to Wickford then change onto a replacement bus serviced to Shenfield then a train which arrived at 15:01 into London Liverpool street. I then had to get a tube to Euston which also caused delays as central line was closed.

I was told that since it was “PLANNED” engineering work that caused my delay then I would need to buy a new ticket.

Did you have to pay anything extra? If so, you will at a minimum be due a refund of this. This is unacceptably poor behaviour by VTWC - seemingly they do not understand the very simple concept of a binding contract - but nonetheless I am far from surprised.

The fact that engineering work was subsequently announced has ZERO impact on the validity of your ticket. If anything, that is a breach of contract by the TOC, certainly not by you.

I would send in a strongly worded letter to customer services at VTWC and demand a full refund of anything you were made to pay to travel. If they do not refund you in full within 14 days, I would be proceeding straight to a Letter Before Action; there can be no possible excuse for what they have done.

 

[marko4ever34]

Thanks for this much appreciated. I have written to the CEO to complain. The whole experience was very upsetting and I am still travelling . I will be home almost 3 hours later.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for this much appreciated. I have written to the CEO to complain. The whole experience was very upsetting and I am still travelling . I will be home almost 3 hours later.

What have you written?

 

[marko4ever34]

Dear Phil,

I write regarding the above booking. I booked this ticket in good faith that I had plenty time to catch a connecting train from Southend Airport. Unfortunately, I arrived at the station to discovered there was engineering works and a bus replacement service for part of the route. There was then further delays on the tube and I missed my train by 1 minute.

Being a disabled passenger, this was very distressing for me, but I assumed it wasn’t my fault and that I would be assisted to travel on the next service – not so. Apparently since these were “planned” engineering works then nobody had any responsibility or indeed discretion to help me and I would need to buy a new ticket, when I had no money to buy one. Naturally this caused me to have a panic attack and I spoke to the train guard on the 15:43 train who said he would be happy to let me on but that I should speak to the train guard on the 16:30 train as that train would arrive quicker.

Before I had a chance to speak to the train guard a revenue officer demanded to see my ticket and while I explained I had been advised to speak to the train guard he said it was up to him and he was not allowing it – despite the fact he had also already circled and stamped my ticket (he changed his mind when he saw my reservation was for the 15:30 train).

Distressed and very upset I remembered I had a complimentary ticket on Virgin Trains East Coast but they were also having bus replacements etc and services via Carlisle and I had to dash to Kings Cross to catch the last train.

I have tried to find information on the National Rail Service website as to whose responsibility it is to check for planned engineering work and what happens when things go wrong; when a passenger is not aware of this or bought their ticket in good faith when no engineering work was in place, but can see no guidance on this except this: “9.4 Notwithstanding Condition 9.2 (b) above, if you are using an advance Ticket and you miss your booked train because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty”.

Moreover, surely common sense prevails when a disabled passenger is stranded and upset through no fault of their own. As it is I am now getting home 2 hours later, and I am not happy with how this was handled.

I respectfully ask for a full refund on this ticket and/or complimentary first-class tickets for myself and carer to travel at a future date. I hope you can restore my faith in such a jobsworth approach that was taken and offer some goodwill.

 

[A Challenge]

I note that the 13:15 from Southend Airport (the 13:10 from Southend Victoria) arrives in to London Liverpool Street at 14:10, and the minimum connection time to Euston (between 06:00 and 23:59) is 48 minutes, so you can get any train after the 14:58 on a valid itinerary, which the 15:30 is.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The engineering work on Saturdays & Sundays during September and October, resulting in replacement buses for all or part of the journey from Southend Victoria to Shenfield was publicised well in advance. Those of us living along the line knew back in June that we would have weekend trains in July & August and no weekend trains in September and October. I cannot say when the online journey planners would have been programmed with this information.
You say that you booked an advance purchase ticket on Virgin West Coast from London to Edinburgh. Was this booked all the way from Southend Airport, i.e. VTWC & connections, or just from London with another ticket from Southend Airport to London.

You mention difficulties with the Central Line. The Central line would not feature in any journey I would take from Liverpool Street to Euston, as I would take a Circle/Metropolitan/Hammersmith & City line to Euston Square and walk.

In any case, the rules with an advance purchase ticked are that if you have been delayed by railway circumstances, and this leads to missing your booked train, you may travel on the next available service of the same TOC. So it does seem that you were harshly treated and a complaint is justified.

 

[gord]

There does seem to be a few instances of engineering works being announced to the public after advance tickets have been released, as I have found recently with Scotrail. In fact, there's 2 weeks to go until the blockade around Stirling, sleeper tickets to stations in the middle of the blockade have only been made unavailable within the past few days, and on National Rail enquiries, it still shows as no planned engineering works for Scotrail during that week. You can only find information about the blockade on Scotrail's own website, and it's under timetable changes rather than engineering works. LNER had already stopped selling advance tickets to stations in the blockade but don't know how long ago that was.

If it wasn't for the fact that I smelt a rat when the trains I was booked to go on started to disappear from Realtime Trains and then had some kind guidance from this very forum, I may have well been in a similar position to the original poster of this thread. Thankfully, I've been able to cancel my original tickets and I've purchased new ones in order to ensure that I make my connection. I wonder how many passengers are going to be left high and dry that week in Scotland.

 

[OwlMan]

When did you buy the ticket from Southend to London and was it a separate ticket to your advance from Euston?

 

[142blue]

"Distressed and very upset I remembered I had a complimentary ticket on Virgin Trains East Coast"

+

“I respectfully ask for a full refund on this ticket and/or complimentary first-class tickets for myself and carer to travel at a future date"

 

[1e10]

Does a contract exist to get the OP from A to C via B, if the OP has only purchased B to C beforehand?

 

[142blue]

"Being a disabled passenger, this was very distressing for me"

+

"Moreover, surely common sense prevails when a disabled passenger is stranded and upset"

 

[marko4ever34]

Can anyone advise my next step. This was their response:

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I'm emailing you on behalf of Phil Whittingham, our Managing Director.
I'm sorry to hear of the problems you had getting to London Euston station. Having checked your booking your tickets were from London Euston to Cowdenbeath.
As the delay was due to planned engineering works on your journey from Southend Airport and a delay on the Tube (which doesn't form part of your booking) we are unable to consider this delay under the National Rail Conditions of Travel 9.4.
Our staff are fully trained on how to deal with a lot of different situations. This means they can then make informed decisions about what action is appropriate for them to take at the time. And we have policies in place to help staff to make the right decisions.
I’ve looked at your case. And while I’m disappointed to hear about your experience, our staff were following the right policy and correctly advised that you would need to purchase a new ticket.
As your original ticket was an Advance ticket, which is non refundable, we are unable to refund the cost of the ticket on this occasion.
I appreciate that my response may not have been the one that you were hoping for, but I hope that my email has explained our position.
Thanks you for taking the time to contact our Managing Director's Office.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Can anyone advise my next step. This was their response:

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I'm emailing you on behalf of Phil Whittingham, our Managing Director.
I'm sorry to hear of the problems you had getting to London Euston station. Having checked your booking your tickets were from London Euston to Cowdenbeath.
As the delay was due to planned engineering works on your journey from Southend Airport and a delay on the Tube (which doesn't form part of your booking) we are unable to consider this delay under the National Rail Conditions of Travel 9.4.
Our staff are fully trained on how to deal with a lot of different situations. This means they can then make informed decisions about what action is appropriate for them to take at the time. And we have policies in place to help staff to make the right decisions.
I’ve looked at your case. And while I’m disappointed to hear about your experience, our staff were following the right policy and correctly advised that you would need to purchase a new ticket.
As your original ticket was an Advance ticket, which is non refundable, we are unable to refund the cost of the ticket on this occasion.
I appreciate that my response may not have been the one that you were hoping for, but I hope that my email has explained our position.
Thanks you for taking the time to contact our Managing Director's Office.

Did you not buy the ticket from Southend to London before the engineering work was announced?

 

[marko4ever34]

Yup but they are saying because it was planned its my responsibility to check

 

[Wallsendmag]

Have you got an journey plan from your original booking?

 

[Clip]

Yup but they are saying because it was planned its my responsibility to check

And did you check when you booked it because your sentence doesnt make it clear whether you checked for the VTWC service or the one from Southend as it seems you booked the Southend one at a later date

Booked on a service (VTWC) an advance ticket in good faith and left plenty time to get there. When I booked my ticket there was no issues with planned engineering works.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If you bought the ticket from Southend to London before the engineering work was announced, they have nothing to go on. It is entirely irrelevant whether engineering work was subsequently announced - in fact if anything that is a breach of contract (as they are no longer able to transport you as originally promised).

Virgin's refusal to accept the Advance ticket on a later train was absolutely abysmal in the circumstances, and I would be demanding nothing less than a refund. They are so undeniably wrong here that it is not a question of asking politely.

I'm sure the members of the forum will be more than happy to assist you if it is necessary to take this matter further - legally if necessary.

 

[marko4ever34]

Their response..

I'm sorry that you were unhappy with our previous response. I've looked into your original correspondence and our response again.

As previously mentioned, the entire journey was not booked as one journey. Therefore, as you missed your booked service with Virgin Trains, you would not have been able to use your Advance ticket on a later service.
The National Rail Conditions of Travel states:
'If you need to make a claim against a Train Company or Rail Service Provider for personal injury or any loss or damage to property, or a claim or complaint arising under the Passenger’s Charter or these Conditions, you should write to the relevant Train Company or Rail Service Provider in the first instance.
35.2. Please note that a Train Company is not responsible for:
35.2.1. another Train Company not running any trains;
35.2.2. any losses that occur while you are travelling in any other Train Company’s trains;
35.2.3. another party not providing goods or services; and
35.2.4. any losses that occur while you are using those other goods or services.
However, each Train Company will help you if you have a claim or a complaint about your journey, either by dealing with the matter itself or by passing it on to the Train Company(s), Rail Service Provider or other person(s) providing the goods or services in question.'
As you have advised that the delay was caused by planned engineering works from Southend Airport which would have operated by Greater Anglia trains, I’ve forwarded your email to them so they can get back to you.





In the meantime, if you want to get in touch with them you can do so through this link: Greater Anglia. Here’s a link to their Delay Repay form too.

With regards to being aware of the planned engineering works, this information should have been provided by the retailer from where you purchased your ticket to travel from Southend Airport.


As we have not received a copy of this ticket, I'm not aware of where or when you purchased the ticket. However, you may wish to contact the retailer directly if you feel you were not informed of the planned engineering works before you travelled.


Our Disabled People's Protections Policy outlines how we will assist customers, whether they have booked assistance or not. However, the terms and conditions of the ticket you purchased will still apply.


Our Advance tickets are great for bagging a bargain. But they're also our least flexible ticket and there are specific terms and conditions that you've got to stick to.


If you've booked an Advance ticket, you've got to travel on the service you booked. If you miss your train or choose not to travel, you won't be able to use your tickets. You'll need to buy new tickets to continue your journey.


Advance tickets are also non-refundable. If you bought a new ticket, we won't be able to refund you for your old ones. This is a rule set out in the National Rail Conditions of Travel and it's something that we've got to stick to, like all train companies.


In line with these terms and conditions, our staff member was right to advise that you would need to purchase a new ticket.





If you're unhappy with our reply please let us know. Alternatively you can write to Transport Focus or London TravelWatch, independent consumer watchdogs, established by Parliament to protect and champion passengers' interests. They will consider your case and, where they believe it is appropriate, will follow things up with us on your behalf.

You can find out ways of getting in touch with Transport Focus here.

If your journey took place within the London area as shown by this map then you can get in touch with London Travelwatch. You can find out ways to contact them here.





Thank you again for taking the time to get in touch with our Managing Director's Office.

 

[marko4ever34]

What should i write to them now. I'm trying to claim money back from paypal for breach of contract.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

There's little point claiming money back from PayPal for breach of contract - as PayPal have delivered what you have paid them to do, which is to transfer the value of the tickets, in electronic money, to VTWC. They may offer a refund as a gesture of customer service but they are under no obligation to do so.

VTWC are of course spouting absolute rubbish - the clause they are quoting has no applicability to this situation (which is in relation to injury or compensation claims). That has no relevance to if you are denied travel entirely. They are the ones who breached the contract so they cannot try and tell you to go to GA!

There may be some forum members who are able to ask people in VTWC to take another look. But if that is not possible, or they still maintain their utterly ridiculous position, you will have to proceed to Transport Focus, and/or to Court, to get your money back.

In my view you would be entitled to either a refund, or to the difference between what you paid and the value of the ticket you used, whichever is greater. A complimentary ticket on LNER is extremely flexible and with that in mind I would value it at the cost of an Anytime Return (standard or first depending on what kind of complimentary ticket it is) from London to Inverness, and even that has less validity than the complimentary ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Booked on a service (VTWC) an advance ticket in good faith and left plenty time to get there. When I booked my ticket there was no issues with planned engineering works.

It is very unclear to me what the contractual position was.

However, if you had a ticket, or combination of tickets, with a valid itinerary that was for your entire intended journey from Southend to Cowdenbeath, then that itinerary is the one that the contract is based on.

What matters is the timetable that was in place when you bought your ticket(s).

If you bought the whole combination in one transaction through Trainsplit/Raileasy (or any of the similarly branded sites using the same system) I know that Sickynicky and Mike@Raileasy would support your case. You could also forward the booking confirmation as evidence of the contract.

Alternatively, if you booked through another retailer, it may be worth asking that retailer if they will support you (they might do). If you booked separately through two separate retailers then this might be problematical. While it's still valid, it makes it harder to prove your case.
Make sure that your correspondence makes it absolutely clear what your entire itinerary was. I'd put a bullet pointed list of each train in your itinerary, and a separate bullet pointed list of tickets used for the journey. Be sure to use decisive and assertive language, e.g. "my journey from Southend to Cowdenbeath".