Platinum Trains

[williamn]

Aberdeen - London is over 500 miles - no way you could do it in 4 hours.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Aberdeen - London is over 500 miles - no way you could do it in 4 hours.

Maybe Death has a "slightly modified" motorcycle in the same vein as the "slightly modified APT" he likes to talk about, therefore capable of 500+mph?

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail All!

How will your dual engined 43/5 (and why /5?) be fuelled? At those kind of speeds, I'm thinking a nuclear train or a Hydrogen fuel cell train...

Well, what I had in mind was actually a re-take on the HST design, with each converted power car having two Valenta engine and alternator sets. One of these would be used to power the traction motors local to that power car, and the other one would be used to supply power to the Class 91 at the other end via a busbar arrangement through the train. 8)
In the interim it'd be Diesel powered just like a normal 43, with a possible switchover to used cooking oil at a future point pending experiments on using such "fuel" in Diesel engines.
(And I chose /5 as a sub-class as I thought there must've been a revision or two since 43/0s came out and I was too tired to Google it. Indeed - Assuming that traditional Valenta'd HSTs would've been a 43/0 - Wouldn't that make MTU'd HSTs a 43/1 class? :?)

I'm not so sure about the potential for high-speed Hydrogen powered vehicles (I don't know much about Hydrogen-powered traction) but Nuclear power would certainly allow for some impressive speeds to be reached in relation to the reactor's size. The several headaches though - Going on what I know of the Magnox design of reactors - Would be:

1. Trying to design and build a suitable nuclear core that would fit inside a C1 loading guage (Virtually impossible),
2. Designing a suitable core would be light enough to be transportable by rail (Definitely impossible - Normal nuclear reactors use a LOT of lead for shielding!), and
3. Most importantly: Would be strong enough to survive a serious incident at highly overrated speeds (Such as 1,500mph for a train designed to achieve 300mph) without any form of leakage from the core whatsoever.

Although the idea of Nuclear-powered traction is a nice one from the viewpoint of available power and resulting speeds, the major safety issues and inevitable public reaction to such a system being used pretty much consigns the idea of onboard Nuclear power to the bin before it's even got off the drawing board. hock:
(Although nothing necessarily unsafe in having a static Nuclear station supplying power to the OHLE, though...I'd imagine that it already happens! )

Aberdeen - London is over 500 miles - no way you could do it in 4 hours.

Eh? I always had London - Aberdeen down as about 300 miles! hock:
Using the example that I described above, that would mean a non-stop journey time of five hours at an average speed of 60mph, or three hours at an average 100mph. 8)

Of course the reason that I specified a motorcycle (And not my normal preferred Vanhool AGG-300 or Plaxton Paramount) is because traffic queues, delays and roadworks could be factored out of an "ideal time" calculation.

Maybe Death has a "slightly modified" motorcycle in the same vein as the "slightly modified APT" he likes to talk about, therefore capable of 500+mph?

I certainly wouldn't mind having a motorcycle capable of 500+mph, but - Having seen an unsuccessful speed record attempt using a rocket or gas-turbine powered motorcycle - I don't think that it's possible for a motorcycle-style vehicle to exceed 300mph or so. Above those speeds, the vehicles natural tendancy to "hunt" becomes so pronounced that it'd be impossible to keep the vehicle upright without a very well engineered gyroscopic stabiliser... hock:

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[rail-britain]

Eh? I always had London - Aberdeen down as about 300 miles

As the crow flies, so I am quite sure someone will know the rail miles
London to Edinburgh is just over 300 miles at 330 miles
Sadly it's a further 70 miles to Aberdeen at 400 miles
Shocking isn't it, nearly three hours to go just that extra 70 miles in a HST

 

[87015]

Cross-Waverley 393 miles
Waverley-Aberdeen 130 miles

 

[laseandre]

MTU'd HSTs are 43/2s, due to the amount of PCs made in the first place (over 100, so encroaches on 43/1 when unMTU'd).

 

[Royston Vasey]

MTU'd HSTs are 43/2s, due to the amount of PCs made in the first place (over 100, so encroaches on 43/1 when unMTU'd).

Sure? Thought Cl41 prototypes were reclassified as Cl43/0 and production vehicles built as Cl43/1. Didn't think the MTU'd examples had been allocated a subclass? The addition of 200 seems just to be convention for NXEC/XC, which FGW have decided not to adopt, rather than a new subclass.

Could be wrong...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hmm this says 43/0 and 43/2 for the production vehicles

http://www.125group.org.uk/fleetlist.pdf

and this says 43/0 for the prototype and 43/1 for the rest, no mention of MTUs (and it isn't quite old enough to be before the MTU programme)

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/Resource_data/All%20Time%20class%20Loco.pdf

...so which is correct?

 

[djw1981]

Either way, MTu'd (or VP185'd) engines were not given a subclass. Lesandre is I think assuming that all 43X denotes a new subclass, rather than just a numbering system.

 

[P156KWJ]

I thought NXEC crews worked all the way to Edinburgh if it terminated there?

Usually they swap at Newcastle, being a signing on point, particuarly when it's a London-Glasgow via Edinburgh

 

[rail-britain]

When I worked at ICEC, the majority of routes were :
Aberdeen - Edinburgh / Edinburgh - Newcastle / Newcastle - York / York - London Kings Cross
Glasgow Central - Newcastle / Newcastle - York / York - London Kings Cross

In most cases the driver and Senior Conductor worked together, although there were a few exceptions
I myself was trained all the way between Aberdeen and Newcastle, and on a few occasions I had to stay on at Edinburgh and continue down to Newcastle, but the concession was that I would then travel back to Aberdeen passenger

The Inverness - London Kings Cross was manned by ScotRail drivers between Edinburgh and Inverness, with a Senior Conductor between Edinburgh and Perth and a ScotRail conductor between Perth and Inverness

 

[Craig]

The Inverness - London Kings Cross was manned by ScotRail drivers between Edinburgh and Inverness, with a Senior Conductor between Edinburgh and Perth and a ScotRail conductor between Perth and Inverness

These days I believe it has a Newcastle driver and an Edinburgh guard, they both lodge overnight at Inverness and work the return service in the morning.

 

[rail-britain]

Driver Newcastle - Inverness
So clearly Platinum trains could operate one crew Aberdeen - Newcastle and then another crew Newcastle - London
Obviously a station stop, for crew changing purposes only, would be required
As a result, absolutely no time saving there then!

 

[jopsuk]

Death: the yanks did manage to pack a 3 megawatt reactor into the bomb bay of B36 bomber aircraft, but that did, admittedly, only have shielding to the front.

Distances- by road, according to Google Maps, Aberdeen-Edinburgh is about 125 miles (Using the A90, M90, M9 and connecting roads). Whilst the line takes a different route to Dundee, this is probably similar in distance.

Edinburgh-London, via Berwick, Newcastle, York, Doncaster and Peterborough, is a bit over 400 miles (by road again)

 

[me123]

My initial response to this was that it was laughable. Looking into the proposals a bit more, they do raise a point: there are no fast Aberdeen/Dundee to Edinburgh services, all services being provided with 170s. Certainly passengers in this area would like to have an express service; maybe tapping into this market could be worthwhile. That said, we all know how slow that line is and that fast paths aren't going to be easy to get hold of.

The "To London" portion of this plan, however, simply should not be allowed to proceed. Completely and utterly stupid.

 

[rail-britain]

First ScotRail have a proposal to modify the Edinburgh - Inverness and Edinburgh - Aberdeen services from next year
This includes many, pretty much every second service, of these being limited stop

 

[me123]

First ScotRail have a proposal to modify the Edinburgh - Inverness and Edinburgh - Aberdeen services from next year
This includes many, pretty much every second service, of these being limited stop

That'd probably be good enough, then! I know people complain of two things on this route: stops and traction. I think the 170s are sufficient for the route, but I do agree that journey times leave a lot to be desired. Mostly, this is due to the slow speeds in Fife (Burntisland comes to mind...) but eliminating some stops must improve speeds to a decent extent, I'd imagine.

Inverness as well, due to the long journey and speed restrictions, should really be limited stop or non-stop to Perth/Stirling (depending on the route taken).

 

[djw1981]

1. Would NX stop between Edinburgh & Dundee if there was a benefit? i.e. if following a stoppibng FSr service, you may as well add some stops in to get some revenue!

2. GLQ-INV/ABD is IIRC fast to Stirling, then (Gleneagles*), Perth etc. *some services

3. The infrastructure improvements needed - loops / 3rd bidi line / signaling on the East Coast line North of Dundee are unlikely before 2020 I would guess, and the Fife circle is only going to get worse with more trains using the circle leading to issues with flighting (esp as if NXEC are late into Edinburgh or reduce their recovery time, they will miss their flight out of EDB and could follow a stopper all the way to Markinch). Again, some passing loops / a bidi line is needed.

The London commuter routs are quite well provisioned in having fast and slow lines (or main/relief for GWR land), and even things such as the fast bidi line through Durham station allow faster trains to overtake a stopper.

I agree that the 170's are fine for those longer journeys - the addition of vestibule sliding doors (like the HT declassified FC carriages have) would be perfect. They are way better than a 158 for interurban journeys.

 

[rail-britain]

1. Would NX stop between Edinburgh & Dundee if there was a benefit? i.e. if following a stoppibng FSr service, you may as well add some stops in to get some revenue!

Adding the stops isn't a problem, the main issue is that many of the stations between Edinburgh and Aberdeen are just too short
The main issue at the moment is Dundee - Edinburgh between 08:30 and 09:30, as there are no FSR services

2. GLQ-INV/ABD is IIRC fast to Stirling, then (Gleneagles*), Perth etc. *some services

There are only three Glasgow - Inverness service now all with the same stopping pattern as Aberdeen services, the rest are all Edinburgh - Inverness
Most Glasgow - Aberdeen services are already limited stop between Glasgow and Dundee, but under the proposal the stops between Dundee and Arbroath will also be removed and transferred back to a local stopping service
Most Edinburgh - Inverness services are via Ladybank, again limited stop
The stopping pattern for these services will completely change

3. The infrastructure improvements needed - loops / 3rd bidi line / signaling on the East Coast line North of Dundee are unlikely before 2020 I would guess, and the Fife circle is only going to get worse with more trains using the circle leading to issues with flighting (esp as if NXEC are late into Edinburgh or reduce their recovery time, they will miss their flight out of EDB and could follow a stopper all the way to Markinch). Again, some passing loops / a bidi line is needed

Capacity between Edinburgh and Inverkeithing has always been an issue
There used to be some priority given to northbound HSTs, but as you say if they are even 3 minutes late out of Edinburgh then they can end up behind a stopping service
That was the point of the conference a few weeks ago to discuss methods to streamline services throughout Scotland, however yet again a representative from the East Coast franchise didn't turn up, although all fairness they may not have been aware of it as the franchise had just changed hands when the conference date was finally arranged