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Plumpton Level Crossing wheel-operated gates to be retained

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DaveHarries

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Evening all,

It looks as if Plumpton Level Crossing in Sussex will have its wheel-operated gates - which are listed - for a while longer. The PLCC (Plumpton Level Crossing Campaign) attended a meeting this evening of Lewes District Council and the upshot is on the PLCC's Facebook page. I had heard from the signalman on duty on Friday 25th that the gates were due to go to a heritage railway (Kent & East Sussex?) so it is bad luck on them: at least the gates would have been preserved if the K&ES had got them.

In the meantime I wonder what implications this will have for the replacement of the crossing.....

HTIOI,
Dave


LDC Planning Committee has unanimously rejected NR's planning permission to remove our Listed gates!!!! The stats didn't add up and had been misrepresented and the committee concluded that there was 'Insufficient information to justify their removal and the impact on an important heritage aspect outweighs the need for their removal'. Members of the committee explained to NR that there were lots of Heritage railways that could provide the parts...
 

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Llanigraham

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We are trying to run a 21st Century railway and they want 19th century technology!!
I hope that Group will be getting the bill for the maintenance and the wages of the crossing keepers.
And just wait until some idiot rams the gates and the HSE get involved.
 

Tobbes

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Why is this good news?

The gates were to be preserved in an appropriate place, complete with people to explain the working of them in an historically appropriate manner, and instead you've been campaigning to keep them on the big railway.... because?
 

Jonny

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Why is this good news?

The gates were to be preserved in an appropriate place, complete with people to explain the working of them in an historically appropriate manner, and instead you've been campaigning to keep them on the big railway.... because?

They are luddites... you could call them a bunch of Roger-s.

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/energy-environment/why-roger-contradicts-himself/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS here is a view of the gates - not exactly the best. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.9...4!1s5TTFPXCYAUChJAOYFJpbcA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The worst bit is no wigwags or warning of closure until you're right on top.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In fact, I hope that Network Rail appeals and there is no reason why they shouldn't win; they shouldn't have to use heritage parts on a modern railway anyway. It means the technology is obsolete and should be replaced.
 
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Islineclear3_1

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Reminds me of the long-standing feud between NR and the locals at Frinton-on-Sea when the Walton branch was upgraded and resignalled particularly as estate agents could price houses higher for being "inside the gates". At least they are "preserved" in the local gardens for the residents to "enjoy".

And then there was a similar resistance at Havensmouth during the East Sussex upgrade. I'm sure there are many more

I can understand that this (I think) the last wheel-operated gate box in the south of England but really, how much longer can this go on for?
 

Llanigraham

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It appears from some comments elsewhere, that this may be a Pyrrhic victory!
The gates will remain but the crossing will be closed, as they cannot fit barriers whilst the gates still exist.
 

Starmill

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I was just about to say - if Network Rail aren't allowed to remove the gates by the Local Authority and the gates aren't really safe, then Network Rail can't permit ongoing operation of the crossing at less than the safety standard surely?
 

richa2002

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Absolutely. Let's not pretend this is about anything but money.
 

NSEFAN

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deleted (I was confusing the crossing barriers with those at Littlehaven, which I believe have been removed!)
 

AndyNLondon

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So what if it's about money? Is it wrong for Network Rail to be trying to reduce operating costs?
 

LowLevel

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dear god.........................

(parts form a heritage railway :roll:)

Nowhere near as unusual as you might think. I know of plenty of components of unusual types that have been provided to Network Rail by heritage railways, points machine, relays, castings etc.
 

Jonny

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It appears from some comments elsewhere, that this may be a Pyrrhic victory!
The gates will remain but the crossing will be closed, as they cannot fit barriers whilst the gates still exist.

Indeed, that'll teach them for being NIMBYs. I hope they enjoy their closed gates LOL.
 

MarkyT

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I suspect they are perfectly safe, but costly in that they require staffing.

Safe from a signal interlocking point of view yes I agree, and in the sense that the operator using a wheel doesn't have to venture out into the traffic to close the gates (unless there's a problem with the mechanism). The lack of visible road signals means the gates are less protected from road vehicle damage than with a modern design however. It's possible road signals could be introduced whilst retaining the gates but NR probably don't have the legal powers ready to do that now. They will already have a new level crossing order in hand for the full conversion however but that seems now to be contingent on local planning approval to remove the old crossing.

Absolutely. Let's not pretend this is about anything but money.

One man supervising one crossing and no other equipment is extraordinarily inefficient today and it's a position that has to be covered through staff sickness and holidays etc. With all other remaining signalling positions in the area transferring to Three Bridges, covering this one remaining local post could become increasingly difficult.

The cost and difficulty of retaining spares and specialist skills become increasingly disproportionate as the quantity of the old equipment decreases. Mechanical signalling is finally almost gone in East Sussex. How long is it practical to retain just one installation of that vintage in the area, relying on a dwindling pool of experts nationally, called in over increasing distances for various testing, servicing and overhaul jobs?

I love the look of mechanical signalling and have always been fascinated by its development in response to previous accidents. The time of levers, semaphores and crossing gate wheels has passed on the national network, however. Whilst the old equipment at Plumpton is perfectly safe if used and maintained properly, it's the increasing practical difficulty of that proper support regime that is my major concern. That difficulty could lead to reliability and even safety risks arising, and inevitably higher costs as management try to mitigate these. It's like having one obsolete machine on an otherwise state of the art production line. The costs and plans for its replacement are all agreed but for some inexplicable reason the job never gets done. Engineers will be worrying about when that one-off hand forged special part is going to be replaced soon in the spares store after they had to use the last one, and if old Bert will be able to get there from miles away to install it, especially since his well-trained apprentice has just left to get some more up to date technical experience!

There's nothing wrong with joint efforts with heritage railways to allow through running using carefully designed interfaces between the new and old-style equipment. The idea there is to keep the interface as simple as possible with just a cooperative lever or token release for the route across the boundary. The NR side must not take on any heritage maintenance outside its normal competencies, and normal NR operations must not (reasonably) be affected by any likely fault on the heritage side.

Back at Plumpton, blue sky thinking. Perhaps a modern remote controlled incarnation of the gate system could be investigated if booms were considered an eyesore, a new swinging gate actuator or the telescopic sliding gate idea mooted for Redcar. Whatever the barrier solution, road signals are inevitable as is remote or automated operation. Perhaps a new use could be found for the redundant signalbox in situ, but it's really too close to the operational line (only 2m from nearest rail) so there would be difficulties with future maintenance and risks opening windows etc. It could be re-erected at a heritage railway somewhere else entirely or perhaps the wooden top and roof could be lifted over onto a new replica brick base built just a few metres further back to keep the general appearance similar from the point of view of the whole station complex and road approach. Land availablilty would be an issue, and who would pay for the rebuild.
 

Townsend Hook

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The lack of road signals isn't too terrible at Plumpton, the crossing keeper has a good view each way on the 30mph road, which isn't particularly busy. Obviously a fully road-signalled crossing would be safer, but as has been stated previously NR's main reason for updating the crossing is always going to be money.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Could it get to a point eventually where NR says to the council "either you let us replace the barriers or we close the crossing"?
 

Bevan Price

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With less reputable organisations than NR, I can imagine there might have been some mishap involving the gates and a JCB..............

Elsewhere, public demand to list / save some old buildings has coincided with "accidental" fires.
 

Railsigns

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With less reputable organisations than NR, I can imagine there might have been some mishap involving the gates and a JCB..............

Well it was an HST rather than a JCB that took out Broughty Ferry's listed gates in 1991. :lol:
 

Bald Rick

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Could it get to a point eventually where NR says to the council "either you let us replace the barriers or we close the crossing"?

Nope, as it is a public highway. But it could get to the point where a formal application is made under the Transport and Works act (or similar) to upgrade the crossing, without the council's support. Then it all gets very public, and the council will look silly.
 

CyrusWuff

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Elsewhere, public demand to list / save some old buildings has coincided with "accidental" fires.

See also "mysterious" fires at most of the stations between Liverpool Street and Enfield Town/Cheshunt in the early to mid-80s...
 

LAX54

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Reminds me of the long-standing feud between NR and the locals at Frinton-on-Sea when the Walton branch was upgraded and resignalled particularly as estate agents could price houses higher for being "inside the gates". At least they are "preserved" in the local gardens for the residents to "enjoy".

And then there was a similar resistance at Havensmouth during the East Sussex upgrade. I'm sure there are many more

I can understand that this (I think) the last wheel-operated gate box in the south of England but really, how much longer can this go on for?

Well they 'a' set of gates are there :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They can still resignal I would have thought, but I have no doubts with revised Signal spacing requirements,that the gates will be shut longer to get the required proceed aspects, so they will still moan, not sure if it's a block post, but if it is, would be reduced in status to a gate box, with slots on the protetcing signals
 
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infobleep

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They are luddites... you could call them a bunch of Roger-s.

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/energy-environment/why-roger-contradicts-himself/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS here is a view of the gates - not exactly the best. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.9...4!1s5TTFPXCYAUChJAOYFJpbcA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The worst bit is no wigwags or warning of closure until you're right on top.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In fact, I hope that Network Rail appeals and there is no reason why they shouldn't win; they shouldn't have to use heritage parts on a modern railway anyway. It means the technology is obsolete and should be replaced.
There are still plenty of signal boxes with leavers being used. One could quite easily class them as heritage. Isn't the mainline to Cornwall still semaphore signals in places or have they gone now?

Yes I know they can't remove everything at once. In fact a couple of years ago some points around Surbiton had to be specially made as they are no longer standard. One could class them as heritage, given it lead to the two week cancellation of some peak time services! That's on one of Britain's busiest railway lines. The stretch of line I question here definitely isn't Britain's busiest railway line.

I suspect many parts of railway are heritage features in places.

I do like the fact old heritage bits survive but I fully understand why they would want to get rid of them and would be hard pushed myself to defend them staying. Saying that it will be sad to see them go but that's not a good reason for keeping them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nowhere near as unusual as you might think. I know of plenty of components of unusual types that have been provided to Network Rail by heritage railways, points machine, relays, castings etc.
Which backs up my point that the national railways are heritage in parts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Safe from a signal interlocking point of view yes I agree, and in the sense that the operator using a wheel doesn't have to venture out into the traffic to close the gates (unless there's a problem with the mechanism). The lack of visible road signals means the gates are less protected from road vehicle damage than with a modern design however. It's possible road signals could be introduced whilst retaining the gates but NR probably don't have the legal powers ready to do that now. They will already have a new level crossing order in hand for the full conversion however but that seems now to be contingent on local planning approval to remove the old crossing.



One man supervising one crossing and no other equipment is extraordinarily inefficient today and it's a position that has to be covered through staff sickness and holidays etc. With all other remaining signalling positions in the area transferring to Three Bridges, covering this one remaining local post could become increasingly difficult.

The cost and difficulty of retaining spares and specialist skills become increasingly disproportionate as the quantity of the old equipment decreases. Mechanical signalling is finally almost gone in East Sussex. How long is it practical to retain just one installation of that vintage in the area, relying on a dwindling pool of experts nationally, called in over increasing distances for various testing, servicing and overhaul jobs?

I love the look of mechanical signalling and have always been fascinated by its development in response to previous accidents. The time of levers, semaphores and crossing gate wheels has passed on the national network, however. Whilst the old equipment at Plumpton is perfectly safe if used and maintained properly, it's the increasing practical difficulty of that proper support regime that is my major concern. That difficulty could lead to reliability and even safety risks arising, and inevitably higher costs as management try to mitigate these. It's like having one obsolete machine on an otherwise state of the art production line. The costs and plans for its replacement are all agreed but for some inexplicable reason the job never gets done. Engineers will be worrying about when that one-off hand forged special part is going to be replaced soon in the spares store after they had to use the last one, and if old Bert will be able to get there from miles away to install it, especially since his well-trained apprentice has just left to get some more up to date technical experience!

There's nothing wrong with joint efforts with heritage railways to allow through running using carefully designed interfaces between the new and old-style equipment. The idea there is to keep the interface as simple as possible with just a cooperative lever or token release for the route across the boundary. The NR side must not take on any heritage maintenance outside its normal competencies, and normal NR operations must not (reasonably) be affected by any likely fault on the heritage side.

Back at Plumpton, blue sky thinking. Perhaps a modern remote controlled incarnation of the gate system could be investigated if booms were considered an eyesore, a new swinging gate actuator or the telescopic sliding gate idea mooted for Redcar. Whatever the barrier solution, road signals are inevitable as is remote or automated operation. Perhaps a new use could be found for the redundant signalbox in situ, but it's really too close to the operational line (only 2m from nearest rail) so there would be difficulties with future maintenance and risks opening windows etc. It could be re-erected at a heritage railway somewhere else entirely or perhaps the wooden top and roof could be lifted over onto a new replica brick base built just a few metres further back to keep the general appearance similar from the point of view of the whole station complex and road approach. Land availablilty would be an issue, and who would pay for the rebuild.

Is there a heritage railway that is looking for a signal box right now? Giving a signal box to a heritage line is only useful if there is a line in need of one.
 
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LAX54

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Safe from a signal interlocking point of view yes I agree, and in the sense that the operator using a wheel doesn't have to venture out into the traffic to close the gates (unless there's a problem with the mechanism). The lack of visible road signals means the gates are less protected from road vehicle damage than with a modern design however. It's possible road signals could be introduced whilst retaining the gates but NR probably don't have the legal powers ready to do that now. They will already have a new level crossing order in hand for the full conversion however but that seems now to be contingent on local planning approval to remove the old crossing.



One man supervising one crossing and no other equipment is extraordinarily inefficient today and it's a position that has to be covered through staff sickness and holidays etc. With all other remaining signalling positions in the area transferring to Three Bridges, covering this one remaining local post could become increasingly difficult.

The cost and difficulty of retaining spares and specialist skills become increasingly disproportionate as the quantity of the old equipment decreases. Mechanical signalling is finally almost gone in East Sussex. How long is it practical to retain just one installation of that vintage in the area, relying on a dwindling pool of experts nationally, called in over increasing distances for various testing, servicing and overhaul jobs?

I love the look of mechanical signalling and have always been fascinated by its development in response to previous accidents. The time of levers, semaphores and crossing gate wheels has passed on the national network, however. Whilst the old equipment at Plumpton is perfectly safe if used and maintained properly, it's the increasing practical difficulty of that proper support regime that is my major concern. That difficulty could lead to reliability and even safety risks arising, and inevitably higher costs as management try to mitigate these. It's like having one obsolete machine on an otherwise state of the art production line. The costs and plans for its replacement are all agreed but for some inexplicable reason the job never gets done. Engineers will be worrying about when that one-off hand forged special part is going to be replaced soon in the spares store after they had to use the last one, and if old Bert will be able to get there from miles away to install it, especially since his well-trained apprentice has just left to get some more up to date technical experience!

There's nothing wrong with joint efforts with heritage railways to allow through running using carefully designed interfaces between the new and old-style equipment. The idea there is to keep the interface as simple as possible with just a cooperative lever or token release for the route across the boundary. The NR side must not take on any heritage maintenance outside its normal competencies, and normal NR operations must not (reasonably) be affected by any likely fault on the heritage side.

Back at Plumpton, blue sky thinking. Perhaps a modern remote controlled incarnation of the gate system could be investigated if booms were considered an eyesore, a new swinging gate actuator or the telescopic sliding gate idea mooted for Redcar. Whatever the barrier solution, road signals are inevitable as is remote or automated operation. Perhaps a new use could be found for the redundant signalbox in situ, but it's really too close to the operational line (only 2m from nearest rail) so there would be difficulties with future maintenance and risks opening windows etc. It could be re-erected at a heritage railway somewhere else entirely or perhaps the wooden top and roof could be lifted over onto a new replica brick base built just a few metres further back to keep the general appearance similar from the point of view of the whole station complex and road approach. Land availablilty would be an issue, and who would pay for the rebuild.


Keep the box, keep the gates, simply make the levers, or switches, work a 'slot' in the ROC, OK it needs staffing, but would be regraded Signaller 2 (or even 1) of course current staff would keep their rate, but I have no doubt the 'ruling' will be overuled and common sense will apply !
 

Tomnick

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It already is just a gatebox, and has been for some time, so no savings to be had there. I'd guess that it's quite difficult to staff efficiently, though, with no similar boxes nearby to share relief cover (I understand that it's regularly covered by grade 9s from Three Bridges?).

Yes, I'm as keen as the next man to see our heritage preserved, and I don't see the point of modernising solely for the sake of modernising (i.e. without a decent business case). If every community with manual gates had kicked off like this, though, half the network would have shut by now because it'd cost so much to run - and, if the equipment's knackered and needs renewing, modernisation probably makes even more sense financilly.
 

Philip Phlopp

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It already is just a gatebox, and has been for some time, so no savings to be had there. I'd guess that it's quite difficult to staff efficiently, though, with no similar boxes nearby to share relief cover (I understand that it's regularly covered by grade 9s from Three Bridges?).

Yes, I'm as keen as the next man to see our heritage preserved, and I don't see the point of modernising solely for the sake of modernising (i.e. without a decent business case). If every community with manual gates had kicked off like this, though, half the network would have shut by now because it'd cost so much to run - and, if the equipment's knackered and needs renewing, modernisation probably makes even more sense financilly.

Modernisation is fine, but the real 'buzzword' on the railway today is standardisation, so one guy in a white van can turn up to (in this case) a barrier failure knowing he absolutely has every component needed to fix any problem, and a repair can take an hour instead of three days.

The faulty component can be taken back to base, returned to supplier and any design faults, say a poor quality seal allowing water ingress, can be engineered out of the design and updated parts put into the distribution system and ultimately into use, making a tiny but not insignificant impact on improving the network's reliability.

We get none of these benefits with the retention of olde worlde equipment, the bloke that turns up to fix it when it breaks, as it's prone to do, due to advanced age, isn't necessarily going to be able to fix it, a supplier isn't necessarily going to be able to source a part, and you end up with barriers locked out of use for months whilst a spare part is sourced or manufactured at great cost.
 

Yabbadabba

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Keep the box, keep the gates, simply make the levers, or switches, work a 'slot' in the ROC, OK it needs staffing, but would be regraded Signaller 2 (or even 1) of course current staff would keep their rate, but I have no doubt the 'ruling' will be overuled and common sense will apply !

It was as gatebox supervised from Three Bridges ASC not the new Three Bridges ROC. So whatever happens it will still be supervised from Three Bridges Panel 5 whether it's an MCB-OD or crossing keeper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It already is just a gatebox, and has been for some time, so no savings to be had there. I'd guess that it's quite difficult to staff efficiently, though, with no similar boxes nearby to share relief cover (I understand that it's regularly covered by grade 9s from Three Bridges?).

The relief cover doesn't come from Three Bridges ASC nor has it ever, it comes under the grade 6 GPRs at Lewes.
 
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Tomnick

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Modernisation is fine, but the real 'buzzword' on the railway today is standardisation, so one guy in a white van can turn up to (in this case) a barrier failure knowing he absolutely has every component needed to fix any problem, and a repair can take an hour instead of three days.
I don't disagree with that either, though of course that's hopefully still subject to establishing whether the benefits of standardisation (and any other benefits) outweigh the cost. They probably do in this case, where the local S&T might be struggling to maintain the skills to keep the equipment going. In other areas, not so much with wheel-worked gates but with mechanical signalling generally, it might be less of an issue for now if there's a lot of similar equipment in the area and the necessary skills in the S&T teams (ours seem to manage it anyway, with one of the most prolonged problems being sourcing spares for a panel that's barely two years old!).

The relief cover doesn't come from Three Bridges ASC nor has it ever, it comes under the grade 6 GPRs at Lewes.
Thanks, that makes more sense! Misinformation as ever, though is there any reliance on off-area cover to keep the job moving?
 
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