• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Pointless rail replacement buses

Status
Not open for further replies.

SE%Traveller

Member
Joined
23 Jan 2020
Messages
166
Location
London
Well elephant is a big interchange from bus to tube/rail already, doubt 2 extra per hour at weekends isn’t going to make much difference. True it’s not accessible but would be in addition too rather than instead of stops at Denmark Hill so no impact
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,114
Location
Airedale
If that were the case they’d carry passengers. They don’t.
Surely the main reason is that there are plenty of public transport alternatives - either alternative rail routes (for Central London) or service buses which are more frequent and not much slower (if at all, door to door).
So I agree that blanket ticket acceptance on local buses would make good sense.
 

Capvermell

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jan 2014
Messages
348
Surely the main reason is that there are plenty of public transport alternatives - either alternative rail routes (for Central London) or service buses which are more frequent and not much slower (if at all, door to door).
So I agree that blanket ticket acceptance on local buses would make good sense.

I can quote another bizarre anomaly re Southern's current withdrawal of through weekday evening rail services to Horsham via Epsom and Dorking after the 1725 service from London Bridge (that would normally depart from London Victoria) that has been ongoing since January 3rd.

So from Jan 3rd to Jan 21st Southern simply left those of us using Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham stations with no way to get home other than a taxi (albeit that for about an hour after 6pm there was an alternative option from Dorking on the violently expensive and pitifully slow -35 minutes instead of 10 minutes on the train - Metrobus 93 service not covered by your rail ticket). But then on either Monday 24th or Tuesday 25th Jan Southern laid on a Rail Replacement Bus starting from Epsom and running all the way through to Horsham and stopping all all other stations along the way (the one man self bus owning rail replacement bus guy told me he lived in Pulborough some miles south of Horsham on the A29).

Unsurprisingly I thought Southern had listened to my posts about no weekday evening services from Dorking to Horsham in this forum and had put this Rail Replacement bus on so that passengers from London Victoria could use it from Epsom (where trains then terminated) while passengers from London Bridge could pick it up at Dorking. So I used the last of three hourly rail replacement buses in the late evening for my journey back from Weymouth to Ockley on Tuesday 25th Jan and then also used it on Thursday 27th Jan after going to London for the evening.

Believing this to now be a permanent fixture until normal train services resumed south of Dorking in the evening on a weekday I went up to London on Friday 28th Jan for another event and then at the restaurant I was at just checked my phone to check services were running normally only to see to my horror no rail replacement bus listed. Thought this must be a timetable mistake so debated between getting the train from London Waterloo to Leatherhead where Uber service is available or carrying on to Dorking where annoyingly it isn't (although I now know you can get an Uber from Boxhill & Westhumble as its still in Uber summoning range of Ubers circulating in Leatherhead, Ashtead etc). But as Dorking is always manned by a station supervisor until the last train (whereas Leatherhead isn't and has no one there at that time of night) I decided to go to Dorking expecting that I would be able to get the station supervisor to call a taxi on Southern's taxi account since it was clearly illogical for the Rail Replacement Bus to suddenl disappear when Dorking to Horsham evening services had not resumed. And this is a Rail Replacement Bus with an actual point as it saves a significant taxi fare and moreover the rail replacement bus passes within 0.3 miles of my home compared to 0.8 miles for Ockley Station and the rail replacement drivers are always quite happy to drop me off as it saves them going out of their way to Ockley Station (a set down only stop).

Anyway got to Dorking but the Station Supervisor said no there wasn't a rail replacement bus today and it had been taken off as the rail works it covered were finished. So I then ask why that bus had run all the way to Horsham as though it was covering the missing evening rail services south of Dorking. He said he didn't know and seemed in a bad mood as he was having to kick three or four drunks off the terminating train at Dorking who have overslept their stops. So anyway after he had got rid of them I kept talking to him about why there was a replacement bus for three days and now nothing and told him a Dorking taxi rank taxi at this time of night for the 7 miles to Capel was around £40 due to 50% surcharge after 11pm. Finally seemed to win him over with my knowledge of the line and history of the train services and as he was going home to somewhere south of Three Bridges he agreed to drive me back down the A24 to my home and then cut across country to his home. Initially said he wanted something for petrol money but by the time we had talked about the rail services in the area and his job he said he didn't want any money for the petrol when we got to my home.

Subsequently I have discovered that by walking around 1 mile north of Dorking Station that an Uber can be summoned from Boxhill & Westhumble Station so I did that one night the next week coming back on the last train from North Camp to Dorking Deepdene and a couple of other nights I got off the train from London Waterloo to Dorking at Boxhill and successfully summoned an Uber for only just £9 compared to the normal £16 due to a special 40% off Promo running that week that had a maximum discount of £7 on a journey (so basically perfect for a journey of this length achieving near maximum percentage discount). Sadly this week the promo has ended and it is cheaper to go back to totally unmanned Ifield from London (if I meet a ticket inspector en route I think can pretty reasonably argue I am en route to Horsham as a legitimate routing point to Ockley station and the nearest station with still running train service at that time of night) where the regular non discounted Uber fare for the 7 miles is between £12 and £13. By contrast a licensed taxi from the rank at Three Bridges station after 11.30pm would be around £37.50!

But anyway this was a Rail Replacement Bus with a point and each night there was another passenger (not the same one) travelling on it with me but now Southern have withdrawn it with no explanation as to why they put it on in the first place on Jan 24th or 25th and then withdrew it after Jan 27th.

But this is a bit like asking Southern why they are now showing trains south of Dorking from London Victoria from Feb 20th onwards but with a last train at 2122 rather than the preceding last train before the Omicron service cuts at 2325. The staff working for the Teleperformance run Southern contact centre have no idea why and if you ask for a proper explanation in writing you are told you will get one but as with all of the four complaints I have logged with the Southern Contact Centre in the last four months no written reply is ever received. So the only solution with that is going to be escalate these complaints to the Rail Ombudsman.............
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,114
Location
Airedale
Capvermell's "bizarre anomaly" is that the RRB during engineering works was run to the normal "off-the-shelf" times, rather than producing a special timetable omitting certain stations - a waste of time given that the stops would be set-down-only, and in the absence of passengers to Holmwood, Ockley or Warnham would have run non-stop from Dorking anyway.
 

OxtedL

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
23 Mar 2011
Messages
2,572
Capvermell's "bizarre anomaly" is that the RRB during engineering works was run to the normal "off-the-shelf" times, rather than producing a special timetable omitting certain stations - a waste of time given that the stops would be set-down-only, and in the absence of passengers to Holmwood, Ockley or Warnham would have run non-stop from Dorking anyway.
Thank you for not making me read the whole post.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
8,412
Location
Back office
Does ticket acceptance really mean anything in London any more? You are just getting a different charge on Oyster or Contactless for the route you end up taking. There isn't much point going to Brixton if there are no rail services from there and as you note passengers can use other routes / means of transport.

Remember a lot of people have paper season tickets so it saves them having to pay again.

Suspect with the Bromley South to Denmark Hill via Herne Hill service it’s all about making use of the trains that are running to Victoria. Occasionally one or two people do make use of the service between Denmark Hill and Herne Hill.

Also works in reverse on the Catford Loop - the full route is Herne Hill to Swanley via Denmark Hill, so there’s still a same station connection with Thameslink.

A very generous amount of time is given between Herne Hill and Peckham Rye - about 31 minutes. Even at peak traffic times that leaves a good 15 minutes extra time sitting on roads where the obstruction causes a hazard!

It’s an interesting set of operations - ticket acceptance is usually in place when the Bexleyheath Line is shut, despite a rail replacement service running from New Cross to Dartford. Some links are provided by the 89 which is much quicker. However people for Kidbrooke, Eltham, Falconwood don’t have much choice but to rely on it.
 
Last edited:

SE%Traveller

Member
Joined
23 Jan 2020
Messages
166
Location
London
a nice touch recently when not running the Victoria Dartford Services at weekends was Southeastern running a Bromley South Victoria Service stopping Nunhead, Peckham Rye & Denmark Hill. I don't know if that was change of ownership or coincidence. All Southeaster use to do was advise you take an alternative service to Charing Cross/ Cannon street which was useless advise to anyone west of Lewisham!
 

Capvermell

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jan 2014
Messages
348
Capvermell's "bizarre anomaly" is that the RRB during engineering works was run to the normal "off-the-shelf" times, rather than producing a special timetable omitting certain stations - a waste of time given that the stops would be set-down-only, and in the absence of passengers to Holmwood, Ockley or Warnham would have run non-stop from Dorking anyway.
I still have no clue which actual section of line was closed that necessitated a Rail Replacement Bus to be provided from Epsom to Dorking for only 3 or 4 nights from Jan 24th/25th to Jan 27th.

The RRB started at Epsom but I was able to connect with it at Leatherhead on the South West trains service out of Waterloo to Guildford via Leatherhead. So can I assume that the Southern services out of London Bridge were not running as far south as Dorking from London Bridge on the evenings of 24th or 25th Jan through to 27th Jan? I don't know if the RRB ran on Jan 24th as I didn't need to catch it that night but it definitely did run on Jan 25th, 26th and 27th but not on Jan 28th.

The RRB I travelled on for the last of the three hourly services on Jan 25th was provided by a guy who was a one man RRB driver who owned his own bus (and only did RRB night time work telling me that this let him play golf with his mates in the daytime) but to provide an RRB for three hours in a row I presume involved more than one RRB as it surely wouldn't have been possible to get from Epsom to Horsham and back within an hour. The first night I travelled on Jan 25th there was a guy already on the bus at Leatherhead who was going through to Horsham and on Jan 27th there was a guy already on the bus with a child's bicycle at Leatherhead who got off the bus at Dorking.

This all comes back to a fundamental longstanding problem with RRBs on the Southern line down to Horsham of them just turning up in the online timetables but with absolutely no support on the ground of any kind. That is no signs at the station (Leatherhead on that night was totally unmanned for the last RRB) showing where you have to take the RRB from since in common with many stations Leatherhead has two passenger exits from opposing platforms in to a different street and the actual RRB pickup point turned to be from a stop near the exit from the Up platform back to London rather than the Down platfom I got off the train on. I was literally hopping between the two sides of the station for 10 minutes listening for the sound of a bus and very nearly missed it.

Also after I complained when I missed the RRB bus at Ockley late morning on a Saturday in October or November because they sent a full luxury coach that didn't want to turn round at the top of the station approach they ended up changing the RRB stop in the very hard to find online document to the junction of the bottom of Ockley Station Approach and Coles Lane instead of outside the station at the top of Station Approach. But Teleperformance never wrote to me in response to may complaint about missing the bus to tell me that is what had been done to fix the problem in future. Teleperformance never seem to send a written follow up to any telephone logged complaint that has requested one since I logged three telephone complaints between October and December on which I heard nothing more from Teleperformance (masquerading as Southern employees since they will not under Apparent Threat Of Dismissal for doing so admit who their real employer is in response to a direct question) or from Southern itself.

RRB's are just laid on when trains are cancelled but unless its an RRB on a busy section of line like Three Bridges to Horsham absolutely no effort whatsoever is made by Southern to ensure passengers on the ground know where to go to catch the RRB bus at a deserted station late at night. If you see an RRB listed in the timetable your heart sinks for that reason alone, never mind the 20 minutes or more extra it actually takes to reach Ockley using one, especially if starting from Epsom.

Anyway latest state of play re no evening services south of Dorking from London Bridge after the 1725 is that if I can believe the Southern website timetable as of next Monday 14th Feb they are proposing to run a single isolated service direct to Horsham from London Victoria via Epsom and Dorking at the last normal train time of 2325 even though the last train before that is still from London Bridge at a ludicrously early 1725. Then as of Feb 21st they will allegedly be running the preceding timetable up to the week before Christmas from Victoria for all trains. But when I checked yesterday they were showing trains from Feb 21st leaving Victoria for Horsham via Dorking at 1922, 2022 and 2122 but none after the time. I was about to complain about that and say a train 1922, 2122 and 2322 made more sense but it looks like someone in train planning has realised that so just put on the 2325 instead.
 

Capvermell

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jan 2014
Messages
348
Remember a lot of people have paper season tickets so it saves them having to pay again.

Also remember that a lot of us in the straw chewing badlands served by Southern beyond TFL Zone 6 don't have a single continuous journey Contactless option between the station we get on at and our final travel exit point on TFL services and so many of us have One Day Travelcards, although that's more true of stations like Horsham and further south where they get better value for money Super Off Peak Travelcards rather than discriminated against stations north of Horsham to Zone 6 Boundary that are only allowed more expensive (but valid on trains after 9.30am instead of trains not departing till1 0am) Off Peak Travelcards. I only bother with a Travelcard from Ockley because I also have a Network Card knocking the price down to £13.50 instead of over £20. If I didn't I would just buy a paper return ticket to London Victoria at £10.20 and then do contactless tube and bus on top. But that's the problem with the current long term diversion to London Bridge since even though its still a Southern Terminal in London Southern charges more to go to London Bridge (which it has diverted you to) than for a London Victoria only ticket. Exactly why they charge significantly more from Ockley to London Bridge than London Victoria is beyond me since you can get there entirely on Southern trains.

Southern has finally after all this time just in the last few weeks made it possible to buy a Travelcard from Ockley to TFL Zones 1 to 6 with a Railcard on The Key from their station ticket machines (but not online) but there is still no Contactless single journey by journey option between Ockley and a TFL Tube or Bus final destination. You have to get a Travelcard to use The Key to cover Southern Railway and TFL services combined.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,114
Location
Airedale
The answer to your question about which section was closed is presumably Leatherhead to Dorking: Southern might well prefer to use Epsom as the transfer point for the reasons you have identified.
 

Capvermell

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jan 2014
Messages
348
The answer to your question about which section was closed is presumably Leatherhead to Dorking: Southern might well prefer to use Epsom as the transfer point for the reasons you have identified.
On Jan 25th when I didn't know which side of the station the RRB would be leaving from (as logically it ought to be from the entrance by the Down platform where the last train comes in but the only bus stops at the station are at the more major entrance by the Up platform) there was no further down train to Dorking after the South Western train to Guildford via Leatherhead I had connected with at Clapham Junction. The connection at Leatherhead to the bus is perfectly simple as long as you know which side the bus is leaving from.but as Southern leave Leatherhead totally and utterly unmanned at this time and also put up no signs re the RRB location then not so easy at all.

The three RRB buses seemed to be being provided by a firm based in Horsham (I'm assuming if one of their freelancers with his own RRB was based in Pulborough) but even so running down to Horsham from Epsom rather than to just Dorking would probably have necessitated extra trips given the three hourly RRBs operated.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
30 Jun 2019
Messages
5
(1st post so please be nice )
If you really want an example of a "useless RRB service" try going back in time to when the Rugby area was being remodeled. There was a dedicated RR service between Euston & Marylebone so passengers could travel to Birmingham via Moor Street. In the WHOLE time this was (2 or 3 weeks IIRC) on we carried about 10 passengers IN TOTAL with a bus departing each end every 10-15 minutes
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top