Poor Treatment Of Evening Star

[6024]

I went to Steam in Swindon on Saturday mainly because I wanted to see the great lady,the museum was great untill I set sight on Evening Star concidering
Its 50 years since she was built the state of here was apalling there is patches of paint missing not little patches but big patches,its a shame that something this special can't get a coat of paint becausethe national rail museum is only intersted in ploughing money into the Flying Scrapheap and Tornado,
how they can justify this I don't know but I dread to think what the other exibits in york look like condiction wise

 

[Christopher125]

Erm, since when has the NRM ploughed money into Tornado? And as far as im aware Evening Star still has her original, swindon-applied paint and the historical importance of that shouldnt be forgotten - while she might be in need of some conservation work when she gets back to York she is hardly falling apart.

CHris

 

[berwickspotter]

I went to Steam in Swindon on Saturday mainly because I wanted to see the great lady,the museum was great untill I set sight on Evening Star concidering
Its 50 years since she was built the state of here was apalling there is patches of paint missing not little patches but big patches,its a shame that something this special can't get a coat of paint becausethe national rail museum is only intersted in ploughing money into the Flying Scrapheap and Tornado,
how they can justify this I don't know but I dread to think what the other exibits in york look like condiction wise

Flying scrapheap well that is YOUR own opinion
But do remember that this scrapheap as you call it did on the
30th November 1934 became the first steam locomotive to be officially
recorded at 100mph and earned its self a place in the
Land speed record for railed vehicles

 

[Vulcan]

There are some locos in the NRM that could do with a bit of smartening up though, Winston Churchill springs to mind. But Evening Star always looked brilliantly presented at York.

What upsets me more with the NRM is the dumbing down of all the explanations. Its not just 4 year olds that visit!
I'm thinking here mostly of Shildon. Some of the most historic locos in the national collection, Deltic Prototype, APT-E and Green Arrow are on display there with next to no explanation of what they are, how they work, and their facinating histories. And while I was waiting in line to have a look in the V2's cab, overhearing what other people were saying showed there is definately some scope for some education, which the NRM should be providing through its displays in the museums.
Even the 'explainer' in Green Arrow's cab couldn't answer all my questions about them, he seemed to be more bothered about blowing a toy whistle to confuse small children. :cry:

 

[Going South]

The museum industry as a whole (not just rail) has a minefield to tread between preservation, conservation and restoration, all of which are different things and all of which have their pros and cons.

I don't really know enough about the older steam engines to give detailed examples, but I seem to remember something about a steam loco being fitted with some equipment to allow it to allow it to use some form of modern signalling. That's all well and good, but have you not then changed the very thing you are trying to preserve (and in doing so may have destroyed or damaged evidence about its origins)?

These are complex matter to which there are no easy solutions.

Vulcan's comments about education and displays I am inclined to agree with; unless one is an expert one needs help to interpret what you are seeing, otherwise it becomes another exhibit which is pretty/magnificent/boring/a nice shade of green.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Erm, since when has the NRM ploughed money into Tornado? And as far as im aware Evening Star still has her original, swindon-applied paint and the historical importance of that shouldnt be forgotten - while she might be in need of some conservation work when she gets back to York she is hardly falling apart.

CHris

Hmm, not certain about that. I think she had a makeover at crew in the late 60s to repair the shunt damage she had suffered in an accident. She nearly got cut up (or sold off to the yanks) because she was refused a place on the preservation register because BR W wouldnt pay to repair the damage. Crewe (I think) to its credit did the job itself Photographs of the work seem to show her paint stripped off, though it might be original in the cab area.

I dont think she is in bad shape. She has that lived in look left over from when it was running in the 80s, but hardly bad shape. But I do agree it was a great pity that nobody saw that getting it running for its 50th Birthday (and the GWR175) would be a good idea. I mean, how hard could it be? Its not like poor Flying Scotsman which has hardly had a retirement. There are years of life left in Evening Star yet. All the 9Fs were designed to operate up till the 1980s, and she didnt do a quarter of that.

As a matter of interest, how many Swindon built locomotives that the NRM own are running at the moment? I can only think of City of Truro.

 

[Vulcan]

. I mean, how hard could it be?

Famous last words in preservation. There is inevitably loads of unforseen and always expensive problems that crop up when a loco is dismantled for overhaul, Things which the NRM doesn't have the spare funds to deal with. And if they did then they'd end up with a freight engine, which isn't really cut out for working on the mainline at all, and too big for working on many preserved lines. Plus there are already 2 (I think?) working 9Fs.

As a matter of interest, how many Swindon built locomotives that the NRM own are running at the moment? I can only think of City of Truro.

Thats one more then their working Doncaster built locos.

 

[90019]

But do remember that this scrapheap as you call it did on the 30th November 1934 became the first steam locomotive to be officially recorded at 100mph and earned its self a place in the Land speed record for railed vehicles

But how much of the original loco that achieved this will actually be on display when they finish it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

how hard could it be?

Don't say that!

 

[Death]

I'm thinking here mostly of Shildon. Some of the most historic locos in the national collection, Deltic Prototype, APT-E and Green Arrow are on display there with next to no explanation of what they are, how they work, and their facinating histories.

Specific to the collection at Shildon, what I'd like to know is What in the name of the Gods is the APT-E doing sat there doing absolutely nothing, when she could easily be paving the way for blazingly fast times along both the MML and the Chiltern lines? :cry:

If there's one dream that's always been in my mind ever since my first rail journey through High Wycombe, it's been the idea of taking the Wycombe valley section in an APT-E at speeds that would literally vapourise a Chiltern 168!... hock:

 

[Vulcan]

I don't really think its realistic to expect everything to be restored to working condition, especially something as unique and with as much limited use as the APT-E. At least now at Shildon its under cover, so the volunteer group can steadily restore it cosmeticly. But the thing that annoys me most is the complete lack of displays or any information about it whatsoever, I think the only information about it was and A4 sheet saying 'this is a passenger train, kids' or words to little more effect then that. I don't even think it mentioned that its a tilting train, let alone that it was an experiment, or that it is a gas turbine, or that it has interesting brakes.

They have also split the train in half so they have a large space in the middle of the hall for functions. The same sort of thing is happening at York as well, last time I was there some sort of structure was being built on top of the turntable in the great hall, it looked a bit like it was a set for a stage show. There is also a space in the station hall for corporate events and theatre productions, and last year they closed the tent outside and took Stirling Single off public display so it could be used in yet another theatre production out there. It seems the NRM is more bothered about corporate funtions and pretending to be a theatre then it is about being a museum.

 

[curly42]

I went to the museum at Swindon last week (16th February) and didn't think she looked too bad,although I have to admit I didn't look too closely - being more amused by the fact that the last time I saw her in that location she was under construction !!
Here's a shot of the great machine as she is now -
http://david-j-smith.fotopic.net/p63457405.html

 

[Christopher125]

The NRM does not have unlimited funds. If people want the museum to improve they you have to accept their need to make up shortfalls in the money they are given and the way they do that is through commercial activities. The occasional function is a very small price to pay considering that the staff have been to the point of striking over their salaries.

Chris

 

[asylumxl]

Personally I blame the Director of Fun and his slack management style. Furthermore, I blame Gordon Brown and Network Rail for the state of NRMs locos. Had The All Great Maggy been in power, the NRM would be making record profits and have a massive site, located in India.

 

[mumrar]

Here's a shot of the great machine as she is now -
http://david-j-smith.fotopic.net/p63457405.html

[sarcasm]Oh my god, that's hideous, you can hardly recognise it as a train, let alone which one![/sarcasm]


Whilst everyone slags the NRM off because their favourite trains are being neglected I think it should be remembered how much we pay to get in. That's why they sometimes have to pander to functions, specialist preservationists (think Tornado and Duchess of Hamilton) etc. They need to attract the funding somehow, and that gift shop won't do it all. My thoughts on the 'Flying Scotsman' project have been stated before now. Suffice to say, it's so famous (like Mallard) that Joe Public from around the globe knows about it. So when they come to the NATIONAL RAILWAY MUSEUM, they'll be plenty bemused to hear it's working a VSOE between London Victoria and Folkestone. It should be restored cosmetically so it can be seen and marvelled at up close, not to running main line condition.

 

[The 158 Man]

The NRM staff have been to the point of striking over their salaries.

When was this/is this happening then, because I work there and I've heard nothing.....

 

[Christopher125]

When was this/is this happening then, because I work there and I've heard nothing.....

Wasnt there some unrest a while back, or was that in another part of the NMSI? Im sure i heard something along those lines. Besides, the point remains the same - relying on government funding has made balancing the books very difficult for all the large museums, especially in the present climate, and its not just returning loco's to steam that are affected.

Chris

 

[Drsatan]

Specific to the collection at Shildon, what I'd like to know is What in the name of the Gods is the APT-E doing sat there doing absolutely nothing, when she could easily be paving the way for blazingly fast times along both the MML and the Chiltern lines? :cry:

If there's one dream that's always been in my mind ever since my first rail journey through High Wycombe, it's been the idea of taking the Wycombe valley section in an APT-E at speeds that would literally vapourise a Chiltern 168!... hock:

Peter Parker, head of the British Railways Board, stated in the early 80s that by 1995 he'd like to see the ECML and MML electrified, with APTs in use on both lines. Now we don't know whether the MML will be electrified or not...

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Famous last words in preservation. There is inevitably loads of unforseen and always expensive problems that crop up when a loco is dismantled for overhaul, Things which the NRM doesn't have the spare funds to deal with. And if they did then they'd end up with a freight engine, which isn't really cut out for working on the mainline at all, and too big for working on many preserved lines. Plus there are already 2 (I think?) working 9Fs.


Thats one more then their working Doncaster built locos.

I do agree that its not suitable for running on the main line, but then neither is City of Truro. Black Prince for that matter never really seems to have a problem finding anywhere to run on heritage lines.

Its not a perfect world, and of course everyones favorite loco cant be got running. Evening Star is in pretty good cosmetic condition and its at Swindon for its Birthday. Thats not a bad state of affairs. You are also of course you are right, these problems do crop up, and one shouldn't minimize the problems of restoration. On the other hand it is a fact that here are a heck of a lot more 9F spares lying around than there are A3 spares. Whilst there may still be problems related to the collision, its hard to conceive it as in worse shape than Scotsman. That and the various events coming up this year should have least have had it considered for restoration to running condition. It just doesnt seem to have even occurred to them. I dont hold it against them, Im just saddened by the fact ive never seen it run.


Before anyone says im overly ambitious.....
http://www.petitiononline.com/GWR4003/petition.html

 

[mumrar]

But, I'm only 31 and I've seen it on the mainline. The fact you've never seen it run is not their fault.

 

[Saltleyman]

That and the various events coming up this year should have least have had it considered for restoration to running condition. It just doesnt seem to have even occurred to them. I dont hold it against them, Im just saddened by the fact ive never seen it run.


Before anyone says im overly ambitious.....
http://www.petitiononline.com/GWR4003/petition.html

The likelihood of seeing 92220 Evening Star running on the main line anywhere in the UK is very,very remote because of two things,one the rail profile used today would prohibit it ,and secondly because of the fact that the centre driving wheel has no flange would mean that it would be unable to use most crossover point work for the reason previously given.

 

[Christopher125]

No 9F is ever likely to go mainline again - if im not mistaken, Hosking even had 92212 fitted with OTMR in the hope that it could be run on certain routes but having to check every point and checkrail just isnt realistic.

Chris

 

[SWT Driver]

I . I dont hold it against them, Im just saddened by the fact ive never seen it run.

So you would like them to spend £1 million plus so you can see it run! Maybe we should all be thankful for the locos that do run rather than moan about the ones that dont. And as for the collision damage wasnt there the opinion that the loco is no longer 92220 but was swapped for one without crash damage because BR didn't want to spend out on what was in effect a scrap asset?

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

So you would like them to spend £1 million plus so you can see it run! Maybe we should all be thankful for the locos that do run rather than moan about the ones that dont. And as for the collision damage wasnt there the opinion that the loco is no longer 92220 but was swapped for one without crash damage because BR didn't want to spend out on what was in effect a scrap asset?

There were photos in a recent issue of The Railway Magazine and I think Steam Heritage which prove the story about the bogus Evening Star has about as much in it as the one about the Strategic Reserve.

Sure I would like to see it run, so would many people who are Swindon Steam locomotive enthusiasts. I dont feel the need to apologize for it. I am thankful for the ones that run, its just notable that most of the Swindon built runners are due to the remarkable efforts of Tyseley and Didcot, not the NRM. As I say, I dont hold it against them, I just regret that it doesnt even seem to have occurred to them to look at it for GWR175.

Christopher I agree, there are a lot of good reasons why ES cannot run on the national network. Thats fine, neither can City of Truro, but its not stopped it being a popular restoration it getting a lot of use on heritage lines. Or Black Prince for that matter. Its not going to happen and I accept that. I am not slamming the NRM in any way for not rebuilding it to running condition. I just regret the fact that they have not done so.

 

[Vulcan]

I'm confused why GWR175 has anything to do with it, Evening Star isn't a GWR engine, and there are plenty more GWR locos running that are, including the NRM's very own City of Truro.

I do think that the NRM's money is being well spent on Flying Scotsman, for the following reasons:

There are not many working properly big LNER locos working, there are loads of big GWR locos, Stanier pacifics, and Bullied pacifics, but the only working big LNER locos are the three working A4s. Blue Peter is stuck away at Barrow Hill and Green Arrow is out of action for good at Shildon, and Tornado isn't a real LNER loco so doesn't count. Flying Scotsman is the only loco that can balance things out.
Also, Flying Scotsman is a national icon. ask anybody to name a steam engine, the first thing they'll say is Thomas the tank engine, the second thing they'll say is Flying Scotsman.
And yes I know its not original and all this rubbish, but hardly any working steam engine is, look at Prince on the FR for instance, hardly any of the original machine remains.
And finally, its Flying Scotsman thats being rebuilt in the NRM's workshop, so

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of locos in the NRM collection I would love to see working, (Mallard/ GNR No 1/ Streamlined Duchess/ Evening Star/ Deltic Prototype for the mainline anyone?) But realisticly the NRM only has a limited amount of time and money, and I think it is being well spent on 4472

 

[6024]

I'm confused why GWR175 has anything to do with it, Evening Star isn't a GWR engine, and there are plenty more GWR locos running that are, including the NRM's very own City of Truro.

I do think that the NRM's money is being well spent on Flying Scotsman, for the following reasons:

There are not many working properly big LNER locos working, there are loads of big GWR locos, Stanier pacifics, and Bullied pacifics, but the only working big LNER locos are the three working A4s. Blue Peter is stuck away at Barrow Hill and Green Arrow is out of action for good at Shildon, and Tornado isn't a real LNER loco so doesn't count. Flying Scotsman is the only loco that can balance things out.
Also, Flying Scotsman is a national icon. ask anybody to name a steam engine, the first thing they'll say is Thomas the tank engine, the second thing they'll say is Flying Scotsman.
And yes I know its not original and all this rubbish, but hardly any working steam engine is, look at Prince on the FR for instance, hardly any of the original machine remains.
And finally, its Flying Scotsman thats being rebuilt in the NRM's workshop, so

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of locos in the NRM collection I would love to see working, (Mallard/ GNR No 1/ Streamlined Duchess/ Evening Star/ Deltic Prototype for the mainline anyone?) But realisticly the NRM only has a limited amount of time and money, and I think it is being well spent on 4472

but that enigine 4472 is a scrapheap there are much better engines on the mainline we don't need that dumbo eared rubbish on the mainline,

 

[Vulcan]

but that enigine 4472 is a scrapheap there are much better engines on the mainline we don't need that dumbo eared rubbish on the mainline,

You clearly didn't read my post fully. As I said, Flying Scotsman is a national icon, and fully deserves to be on the mainline.
What makes you say its a scrapheap? By the time they have taken for this rebuild I (which one assumes is being used doing the job properly), 4472 should be as good as the day it was rolled out of Doncaster works.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

but that enigine 4472 is a scrapheap there are much better engines on the mainline we don't need that dumbo eared rubbish on the mainline,

That's your opinion. Not respective of everyone.

 

[CosherB]

Also, Flying Scotsman is a national icon. ask anybody to name a steam engine, the first thing they'll say is Thomas the tank engine, the second thing they'll say is Flying Scotsman.

And that's precisely why it's questionable that the NRM should be spending a vast portion of their buget on it. It is not a significant locomotive. It is by no means certain it was the first to do 100mph and even if it is, that doesn't make it significant. NRM have been caught up in a 'Thomas the Tank Engine' syndrome with 4472 - they are restoring it because people who know nowt about railways think it is a famous engine. That isn't the job of the NRM, that's something one might expect the Disney Organisation to fund!

4472 has always been a money pit. My fear is that it is sucking up NRM funds at such a rate that other stuff they should really be doing will not get done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The likelihood of seeing 92220 Evening Star running on the main line anywhere in the UK is very,very remote because of two things,one the rail profile used today would prohibit it ,and secondly because of the fact that the centre driving wheel has no flange would mean that it would be unable to use most crossover point work for the reason previously given.

1) Why would today's rail profile prohibit a 9F running?

2) How does a flangleless centre driving wheel prevent a 9F using crossovers? They always used to, so what's changed?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Health and Safety Captain Speaking. Also NR requirements. More or less the same things as why steam engines have been limited to 75mph.

 

[Trog]

1) Why would today's rail profile prohibit a 9F running?

2) How does a flangleless centre driving wheel prevent a 9F using crossovers? They always used to, so what's changed?

1) I dont think rail profile is a problem, and even if it was the wheels could I assume be profiled to match on a wheel lathe.

2) I believe the flangeless wheel can be a problem on raised check rails.