Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by aformeruser, 2 Dec 2016.

  1. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    For the avoidance of doubt, the 769s have been wandering around the GCR as an 8 car set today.
     
  2. anamyd

    anamyd Member

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    a double pairing of 4-car units...?
     
  3. Peter Sarf

    Peter Sarf Established Member

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    I think that is a double thingy - punctuation. But just to clarify - I reckon it is a pairing of 4-car units or put the other way 4-car units doubled up.
     
  4. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    769s therefore plural and 8 car set when they're 4 car units? It's really not hard.

    I'll have another go.

    The pair of 4 car 769s were apparently parked close to one another and then banged together in a controlled collision to create an 8 carriage train formed of 2 x 4 carriage units coupled together.
     
  5. JN114

    JN114 Established Member

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    So it’s 2x 3 cars and a 2 car?
     
  6. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    If you like.
     
  7. Jack Brown

    Jack Brown Member

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    769431 has been fully stripped out inside and in warm storage at Allerton Depot along with 769424
     
  8. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

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    Is it going to become the first bi-mode parcels train?;)
     
  9. childwallblues

    childwallblues Established Member

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    Allerton are obviously fitting new seating.
     
  10. paddyb6

    paddyb6 Member

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    Heading to LSP tomorrow, from the station footbridge looking into Allerton TMD can you see the 769s?
    Thanks
     
  11. Jack Brown

    Jack Brown Member

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    They were both inside a couple of days ago...
     
  12. anamyd

    anamyd Member

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    It was more checking than trying to piss you off! Apologies if it came across to you that way. Brilliant descriptive sarc though :D
     
  13. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    How might the 769's perform on a Leeds to Carlisle run I wonder? I know there are no such plans but feels like an interesting candidate bearing in mind the run of wires to Skipton.
     
  14. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    Probably quite well. The theoretical 90mph maximum when diesel powered would be a fair match for the line's 75mph stretches and the long but relatively gentle 1% gradient shouldn't be too much of an issue.
     
  15. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Did I read somewhere that closer to 100mph is possible on parts of the electrified section? If so could they beat a 158 end to end? I have always thought this line would see more use if you could get the journey time down a bit. You could even run the trains up to Glasgow under the wires to bring about a direct Leeds - Glasgow.

    Having just checked National Rail Enquiries the average journey time Leeds to Glasgow is about 4 hours.

    Leeds - Carlisle is 2.44 on current timings, Glasgow about 1 hour 10 from Carlisle and so even on current timings this would seem comparable but with the advantage of a nice view and no changes.

    The fact that it takes the same to get from half way up the country to Glasgow as from London is another story!
     
    Last edited: 9 Feb 2019
  16. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

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    In a 319? they are hardly suited to that sort of journey length! I love them for the improvement they have brought to our previously Pacer-worked lines and the possibilities they offer for the Windermere branch, but across the Settle and Carlisle? I think (hope) not... let's have shortened redundant HSTs from Nottingham to Carlisle, & maybe on to Glasgow via the G&SW...
     
  17. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    I thought that at first but then I considered the combination of a decent refit plus the opportunity to run quite a bit under the wires. They have big windows and 4 carriages would be welcome on some services. You could even use some capacity to add decent bike provision and a place for walkers to dump big bags and muddy boots. Lets say 2/3 carriages in express plush style, 1/2 in walkers and cyclists mode. Could be a nice solution for a mixed use line that should be able to make more of the fact it gets you into some cracking countryside or up to Scotland.

    I would like to see the same format on Manchester to Sheffield stoppers although the lack of wires obviously means the 769 has limited benefit there except that it is a train that can run on diesel, we hope.
     
  18. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

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    Sounds good, but I am waiting to see what they can do when they meet a gradient - especially a long one!
    Your plan would work well if the Hope valley stoppers ran through to Liverpool and Doncaster using the wires whenever they were under them. Better access to the Peak District from more cities without changing trains would be brilliant, especially if they ran semi-fast outside the National Park. Stick to HSTs for the S&C though!
     
  19. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    In your dreams...or would you prefer the S&C to drown under a sea of high operating and maintenance costs for 40+ year old trains? There is a good reason the service runs with DMUs...
     
  20. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    The Settle Carlisle has a ruling gradient of 1% which is much the same as some of the MML over which the 319s kept near to thire 100mph maximum speed for over 30 years. So given that on diesel, they are expected to reach 90mph on the flat, around 75mph on the long drag might be viable. That would be with two small Euro 3b engines per four cars rather than polluting the Pennine wilderness with 1/4 full 40 year old trains.
     
  21. Llama

    Llama Member

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    319s can reach 100mph on a 1% gradient...

    ...going downhill only.
     
  22. Wtloild

    Wtloild Member

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    Straying off topic, but of you wanted a fast Leeds-Glasgow train over Settle-Carlisle, might 800/802 be a better contender than 769?
     
  23. gingertom

    gingertom Member

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    or perhaps this new class 93 loco that's on order with a rake of mk4/5s?
     
  24. Plethora

    Plethora Member

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    It sounds like this thread is the answer to the one about what to do with 185s when they are replaced on Huddersfield services.
     
  25. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    802s, HST and Class 93s/Mk5s on Leeds - Carlisle - Glasgow services?

    What is this Forum's obsession with Leeds - Carlisle - Glasgow? Bearing in mind that there's already a regular service between the two cities (XC every two hours) and the fact that the S&C is limited to 75mph? It's the ultimate Solution In Need Of A Problem for any stock that we don't know what to do with (hence it coming up regularly as something to do with 185s).

    And why bring it up on the 769 thread - they're effectively just 150s with pantographs.

    If you want to throw some 802s at XC so that they can run all of their Leeds - Scotland services through to Glasgow (would only take one extra unit) then fair enough - that also has the benefit of serving York/ Newcastle/ Edinburgh on the way from Leeds to Carlisle - benefitting a lot more people with additional capacity than the relative handful of people using S&C stations.

    Fair enough if the idea is to use 769s on routes where stations beyond the current electrification are missing out - I can see the appeal of running some Leeds - Skipton services up to Settle for peak capacity (albeit with the caveat that the Leeds - Skipton service already needs extending to six coaches - hence the 331s - so I don't know that there's going to be much scope to accommodate passengers for Gargrave/ Hellifield/ Settle.

    But I'd look at areas where the wires don't quite go far enough or services spend a good proportion of their life under the wires (Leeds - Moorthorpe - Sheffield could be sped up if the ECML section was run with fast accelerating 100mph units rather than having to be pathed for Pacers as it currently is - but who wants to talk about practical improvements for unglamorous stations in the Dearne Valley when there's daydreaming about tarting up the S&C?


    If anyone wants to talk about which Northern services spend the most time under the wires (without being 100% suitable for EMUs because of short unnelectrified sections (e.g. Morpeth - Metro Centre) then I'd be interested in that discussion though.
     
  26. Steamie Boxes

    Steamie Boxes Member

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    The S&C is actually 60mph
     
  27. Rail Blues

    Rail Blues Member

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    I know, it is maddening and shows how out of touch with reality some posters are.
     
  28. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

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    Yes, it's weird in relation to a line that probably should never have been built in the first place...
     
  29. superkev

    superkev Established Member

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    With 1044hp (about the same as a class 20) to pull 4 heavy coaches not very well I would think.
    Off topic but sad the main line standard S and C is crippled to 60mph though.
    K
     
  30. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Well as much as I am loving the unleashing of frustration, something of a national sport at the moment, it is actually my first post ever about the S&C.

    The bit I am really interested in is a cost benefit analysis as a performace on a line like this v 158's, more an an example as it is a simple line in terms of fairly long electrified stretch, fairly long diesel stretch with gradients and stations. To me the calculation would be rental cost v a pair of 2 carriage 158's set against the lower fuel consumption of running under the wires plus presumably better efficiency of the newer engines over a longish run plus whatever the delta is in maintenance costs. Probably nobody on here is able to answer this question and it would need the developers of the concept to run the calculations.

    Running these sorts of calculations is going to need doing a lot more as we contemplate lots of different mixed traction options and I for one am quite interested in all the geeky graphs and spreadsheets that will pop out from that analysis.

    For the record, if I really wanted my preferred version of Leeds to Glasgow it would be in a Pullman dining car pulled by a handcar powered by Grayling, Rees-Mogg, Johnson and Gove in penance for the awful divisiveness they have brought upon this country for the amusement of their own egos.
     
    Last edited: 10 Feb 2019

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