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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

AM9

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331's really are just what has been needed for a long time.

331s aren't much use where there aren't any wires.
The sluggish 142's / 150's / 156's always struggled to reach line speed in too many places. Even 319's, to a lesser extent.

There won't be the financial justification to purchase more for some time.
There's so much variation between performance of individual units that any traction effort info is meaningless.
The average 150 on its own with an average, non-excessive load (say 30-50 passengers) might reach say 70-75 on the gentle rising gradient from Salford Crescent towards Bolton, assuming clear signals & no running brake test needed. Two 150s in multiple should reach 75, anything less and you know you've potentially got a dud one (or slightly dud pair). This doesn't include faults such as engines reverting to idle, which is usually obvious to an experienced driver.
A poor 150 might manage 60-65 on the same stretch. A decent one will get to 75 no problem and once there run at that speed with only a partial traction power setting.
Even a poor 319 will reach 75mph without breaking a sweat up to Bolton. However no 319 will reach 100mph, they're just not capable, 85-90mph is about all you can expect and that will take forever.

I've travelled many times in 25 year-old 319s on the long climb up to Elstree tunnels on the MML down fasts, they often exceeded 90 , - even 95 wasn't impossible

By comparison a 331, even a 4-car, will reach 100mph on the same stretch very very quickly as soon as the line speed permits it (line speed is 95mph after Agecroft, 100mph 1/2 mile after Clifton). Even without taking full traction power and when heavily loaded a 331 will easily do 100mph on that route. The difference between those units and everything else Northern operate (even 323s) is monstrous.

As I've said above, the 331s need wires. The 769s are intended for use on non-electrified lines like the Southport branch.
 
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With the arrival of all these 769 flexes, will we soon see the first 150 scrappings ?
AIUI the only current operators of 150s with (a) replacements ordered, and (b) no subsequent leases arranged for those 150s, is Transport for Wales. Northern won't be getting rid of anything diesel once the Pacers are disposed of, so 150 replacement will be down to the next franchisee.
 

Grannyjoans

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331s aren't much use where there aren't any wires

Well it's not specifically just 331's that are needed but the sort of acceleration they have is just what has been needed in years.
Especially on an all stopping service. Especially where there are many stops but the linespeed is high.
I remember pacers often spending long periods of time in full power struggling to get above 45mph on 90mph sections of the Hope Valley!
331's are the complete opposite to that on the Chat Moss
 
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Llama

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I've travelled many times in 25 year-old 319s on the long climb up to Elstree tunnels on the MML down fasts, they often exceeded 90 , - even 95 wasn't impossible
What was the gradient? Can't have been very steep?
 

The Ham

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Any service can have its trains replaced with better/newer/more expensive types so there would be a benefit provided thwe cost wasn't considered. Those using it would presumably be happier to travel in them. The question is, is there sufficient patronage in the North Downs line to justify the cost of new trains, as I doubt that passengers on other lines would be happy to put up with trains that were inadequate for their services just so that relatively few passengers could travel in luxury. Most trains are replaced for operational reasons, not to appease a few passengers.

Given that even some stations like Farnborough North (which only has 1tph) sees ~600,000 passengers a year (and if you've ever been there when a southbound train arrives at college time you'll know that the existing trains are a bit busy (fairly easily 300 passengers getting off a single train which doesn't have that many seats on board) I wouldn't be surprised if there was scope for the passengers to fund new trains.
 
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No, they are still required as 14 diagrams worth of Turbos are required in the West, either to replace cl.150 or for use on additional services in the West that the DfT are contemplating buying as part of DA3. I can’t give any details out on those potential additional services.

Thank you Clarence Yard! Am I right in thinking that DA3 is due to start in April 2020? (If so, there's not much time for DfT to make their minds up...) We wait with baited breath to see what additional services might (or might not) be approved as part of the package (although the Dec '19 timetable does seem to be a significant improvement for many)!

One final question: Is it just the 150/0s that are definitely moving on? Will the 150/2s also disappear to other franchises or is this still up in the air?
 

AM9

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What was the gradient? Can't have been very steep?
I can't remember but it is sustained from Brent Cross to just north of Borehamwood (about 10 miles) and with short headways in the peak, required very tight running at those speeds to prevent them delaying HSTs and Meridians.
Well it's not specifically just 331's that are needed but the sort of acceleration they have is just what has been needed in years.
Especially on an all stopping service. Especially where there are many stops but the linespeed is high.
I remember pacers often spending long periods of time in full power struggling to get above 45mph on 90mph sections of the Hope Valley!
331's are the complete opposite to that on the Chat Moss
Well there are 30 class 707s coming up soon. They are quite new, have provision for easy 25kV conversion, and with PRM toilets added would easily meet the requirement for snappier 100mph stoppers on the MAN to PRE route. They also have a massive capacity so that they can handle large volumes of passengers. As a bonus, the ride on good track is nowhere near as bad as the Civitys.
 

edwin_m

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Well there are 30 class 707s coming up soon. They are quite new, have provision for easy 25kV conversion, and with PRM toilets added would easily meet the requirement for snappier 100mph stoppers on the MAN to PRE route. They also have a massive capacity so that they can handle large volumes of passengers. As a bonus, the ride on good track is nowhere near as bad as the Civitys.
Although it has a 25kV capability the 707 was primarily specified to operate on the third rail network where the capacity of the power supply limits the maximum current and therefore the maximum power that can be used. It therefore has a lower power:weight ratio than some other modern units, so while it might beat a 319/769 I doubt it would match a 331.
 

hooverboy

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Although it has a 25kV capability the 707 was primarily specified to operate on the third rail network where the capacity of the power supply limits the maximum current and therefore the maximum power that can be used. It therefore has a lower power:weight ratio than some other modern units, so while it might beat a 319/769 I doubt it would match a 331.
I think that is where the 707's will stay too.

most likely as a cascade-probably at southern
707 to 377 routes
377's to take over from 313's

the 769's make more sense bolstering the shortage in DMU stock
 

Clarence Yard

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Thank you Clarence Yard! Am I right in thinking that DA3 is due to start in April 2020? (If so, there's not much time for DfT to make their minds up...) We wait with baited breath to see what additional services might (or might not) be approved as part of the package (although the Dec '19 timetable does seem to be a significant improvement for many)!

One final question: Is it just the 150/0s that are definitely moving on? Will the 150/2s also disappear to other franchises or is this still up in the air?

DA3 is supposed to start in April 2020 but the DfT are running out of time to get things done. The 150/0 units are supposed to go to Northern in April 2020 but, as usual, one part of the DfT is having a “discussion” with their colleagues over this. The fate of half of the cl.150/2 fleet depends on what the DfT want to buy in terms of extra services, probably for May 2021 at the rate they are going.

Can I repeat the point I made about passengers on services funding new stock. They don’t because the DfT sees each TOC as one profit centre so effectively the stock cost gets baked into the premium/subsidy line at bid. Any in franchise changes tend to be ultimately politically driven as additional stock is usually far more expensive than the additional revenue generated.
 

AM9

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Although it has a 25kV capability the 707 was primarily specified to operate on the third rail network where the capacity of the power supply limits the maximum current and therefore the maximum power that can be used. It therefore has a lower power:weight ratio than some other modern units, so while it might beat a 319/769 I doubt it would match a 331.
There clearly isn't any intention of spending more money on new trains for Northern, even if Johnson tries to bribe the locals for continued conservative support, (see Clarence Yard's comment above). The choice of CAF designs might not be seen as a particularly good one; more 2-car trains with tables and spread out 2+2 seating won't help the the overloading much and will do nothing for the lack of paths. Getting diesel hydraulic trains with no chance of conversion to bi-mode or even electric is beginning to look like a lame decision.
The suggestion of 707s was more an indication of the type that would be needed to cope with fasts and slows on a two track route, but maximising the passenger capacity in the peak. A 707 weighs around 150 tonnes whereas a 319 is 141 tons. Power wise the 707s have 1200 kW vs 990 for the 319s so the power to weight is enough to make a difference.
The better solution overallwould seem to be the 769s provided they perform in service. The lower acceleration and maximum speeds in diesel mode doesn't matter so much on the unelectrified backwaters that they are slated for.
 

mwmbwls

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The better solution overallwould seem to be the 769s provided they perform in service. The lower acceleration and maximum speeds in diesel mode doesn't matter so much on the unelectrified backwaters that they are slated for.
It all depends of where you live I suppose,
Have you ever travelled beyond ,for example,Wigan to Southport? The non-electrified stretches are an integral part of that service. If trains run late in a western direction they often: miss out intervening stops west of Wigan to make up time, or terminate at Wigan. The main Wigan to Southport bus service runs via Skelmersdale and Ormskirk and does not serve the intervening rail stations, For over three years, OPSTA the local passenger group has put mystery shoppers on these services. They found Consultants at Manchester Royal Infirmary who could not make it in on time to meet the 08.00 shift change, and Mothers who were charged late fees for not picking their children up from nursery in Burscough and Southport. You cannot mess with people's lives like that. In broader system terms late inbound trains proceed to mess up the timetable sequencing from Lostock Junction - Bolton- Salford Crescent and the Castlefield Corridor. If you think just chopping trains does not matter - you might get away with that in St. Albans Don't express this view in hostelries in Harpenden and Luton who might/would have a different perspective about it.
 

Gary B

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So you all think you are expects in the mechanics of a hybrid? Im well in with the management at northern and i can tell you these things work and are better than a toyota prius.
 

Energy

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So you all think you are expects in the mechanics of a hybrid? Im well in with the management at northern and i can tell you these things work and are better than a toyota prius.
Have northern accepted any? I doubt porterbrook would say to northern the trains they ordered are unreliable and terrible. If any have been accepted they should be better than a prius.
 

Mathew S

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So you all think you are expects in the mechanics of a hybrid? Im well in with the management at northern and i can tell you these things work and are better than a toyota prius.
To be fair, the list of things that's better than a Prius isn't a short one :)

Good to hear though, thanks for the update! It's good to hear from someone who actually does know what they're talking about.
 

anthony263

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Have northern accepted any? I doubt porterbrook would say to northern the trains they ordered are unreliable and terrible. If any have been accepted they should be better than a prius.
769450 was accepted by northern beginning of December. 769442 was the next unit being tested followed by 769008 for tfw.
 

modernrail

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That i am not obliged to say but believe me they are excellent units.
If so the DfT have an obvious solution to Part 1 of Bribe the North (but don't actually spend too much darling - and make sure you call them new trains).

I am actually a reasonable fan of this project if they run to time properly in diesel mode and don't break down all the time a la ViVa.
 

samuelmorris

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So you all think you are expects in the mechanics of a hybrid? Im well in with the management at northern and i can tell you these things work and are better than a toyota prius.
In so much as they're less comfortable, less reliable and slower? I'm not really sure what use this comparison serves. I do hope you're right, I have no desire to see the project be unsuccessful, but you'll have to do a bit better than "they're excellent, stop talking"! :D
 

js1000

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I am actually a reasonable fan of this project if they run to time properly in diesel mode and don't break down all the time a la ViVa.
Still a big risk this project. We'll only see if they're upto scratch when operating 18+ hours a day. The current reliability of the 319s with Northern is woeful and a good part of the reason why the 323s will be replacing them come 2021. Strapping diesel engines on it isn't going to make reliability any better.
 

D365

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So you all think you are expects in the mechanics of a hybrid? Im well in with the management at northern and i can tell you these things work and are better than a toyota prius.

The Class 769 isn't a hybrid, neither are the AT300s. If you want an example of rail-based hybrid propulsion, Transport for Wales or Chiltern will be the best places to see them.
 

a_c_skinner

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I never doubted they would perform as projected, their performance on electricity is well understood and their diesel performance was modelled in detail. My concern was, and remains, reliability (and availability which turns out to be different). I'm still intrigued by what seemed an interminable delay between running on the GCR and running on the network but I guess we will never find out why that was.
 

AM9

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It all depends of where you live I suppose,
Have you ever travelled beyond ,for example,Wigan to Southport? The non-electrified stretches are an integral part of that service. If trains run late in a western direction they often: miss out intervening stops west of Wigan to make up time, or terminate at Wigan. The main Wigan to Southport bus service runs via Skelmersdale and Ormskirk and does not serve the intervening rail stations, For over three years, OPSTA the local passenger group has put mystery shoppers on these services. They found Consultants at Manchester Royal Infirmary who could not make it in on time to meet the 08.00 shift change, and Mothers who were charged late fees for not picking their children up from nursery in Burscough and Southport. You cannot mess with people's lives like that. In broader system terms late inbound trains proceed to mess up the timetable sequencing from Lostock Junction - Bolton- Salford Crescent and the Castlefield Corridor. If you think just chopping trains does not matter - you might get away with that in St. Albans Don't express this view in hostelries in Harpenden and Luton who might/would have a different perspective about it.
Where I travel isn't limited to where I live. Yes I have travelled fron Wigan to Southport a couple of years ago. As far as changing train services or even timetables, - just look around. They aren't set in stone so get over it, (even the TL services aren't). Yes of course mums net & co. at Harpenden was having a whinge on the local news during the problems last May, (2019). But things do change and there are likely to be as many losers as winners. Meanwhile, pure diesels continue to poison passengers and residents from Piccadilly/Victoria to Bolton just so that a few passengers can travel on trains that don't have their times altered at all. Eventually new bimodes that are actually acceptable for outer suburban routes like Manchester To Southport will arrive on UK lines, but meanwhile, class 769s (if they are successful) will be instrumental in improving the environmental impact of services that travel along the Manchester-Bolton corridor.
 

Bertie the bus

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To be fair, the list of things that's better than a Prius isn't a short one :)

Good to hear though, thanks for the update! It's good to hear from someone who actually does know what they're talking about.
I would dispute that someone who appears to be a teenager with anger issues, and very poor grammar, is somebody who actually knows what they are talking about.
 

ed1971

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Where I travel isn't limited to where I live. Yes I have travelled fron Wigan to Southport a couple of years ago. As far as changing train services or even timetables, - just look around. They aren't set in stone so get over it, (even the TL services aren't). Yes of course mums net & co. at Harpenden was having a whinge on the local news during the problems last May, (2019). But things do change and there are likely to be as many losers as winners. Meanwhile, pure diesels continue to poison passengers and residents from Piccadilly/Victoria to Bolton just so that a few passengers can travel on trains that don't have their times altered at all. Eventually new bimodes that are actually acceptable for outer suburban routes like Manchester To Southport will arrive on UK lines, but meanwhile, class 769s (if they are successful) will be instrumental in improving the environmental impact of services that travel along the Manchester-Bolton corridor.

I hope that by this time they have found something safer than Lithium to make the batteries from.
I was having a conversation with a friend about electric cars recently. He said that if these batteries are punctured they will blow up emitting deadly fumes and paradoxically diesel is the safest fuel. The DMMU has come back in favour in some other European countries. Voith has recently introduced a new Diesel-Mechanical driveline for Alstom Coradia Lint units. https://www.railjournal.com/rolling...trains-to-be-equipped-with-voith-power-packs/

Nevertheless, let's hope that the 769s are successful for capacity if nothing else.
 

AM9

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I hope that by this time they have found something safer than Lithium to make the batteries from.
I was having a conversation with a friend about electric cars recently. He said that if these batteries are punctured they will blow up emitting deadly fumes and paradoxically diesel is the safest fuel. The DMMU has come back in favour in some other European countries. Voith has recently introduced a new Diesel-Mechanical driveline for Alstom Coradia Lint units. https://www.railjournal.com/rolling...trains-to-be-equipped-with-voith-power-packs/

Nevertheless, let's hope that the 769s are successful for capacity if nothing else.
Lithium batteries, like most new power sources have a development history which includes certain hazards. Lithium-ion, the current type being deployed has a failure rate of 1 in 200,000 which can be further mitigated by better construction and protection. Just like there were the random fires caused first by a few laptop batteries and more recently by Samsung Galaxy 7 mobile phones (ISTR). Now diesel engines emit CO2 and NOx compounds which cause various life changing and ending healt problems. Petrol engines cause more CO2 emissions than diesel, still some NOx emissions and many fires. Note: every petrol and diesel engine causes these emissions, (i.e. not one in 200,000 but one in one), so Lithium-ion and other battery technologies likely to be deployed in transport aren't even in the same league as hydrocarbon fuels, and as development continues, the risks will fall even lower. Hydrocarbon emissions will still be killing millions of innocent non-users even with a perfect drive of whatever kind, even if those products meet their optimistic sales claims.
 

D365

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Lithium batteries, like most new power sources have a development history which includes certain hazards. [snip]

Exactly my thoughts, thanks for putting this so well.
 

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