Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[craigybagel]

No, I acknowledge it has likely been an issue for a while - more making the point that the unions have had the “power” to black the units at any point - indeed it was a dispute between one of the unions and GWR over a different cab issue that largely prevented the 4x 319s GWR acquired for driver training from being used for that purpose - so why have they waited until after Northern, TfW have begun driver training to wield the big stick? As I’ve said they’ve been involved in the process for a couple of years now, and if the union was so unhappy about it, it wouldn’t have gotten this far.

It’s the timing that is off in all of this, and smacks more of the union playing politics than genuinely wanting better conditions for its members.

ASLEF made it clear years ago that they weren't happy about the cabs. They didn't need to black them as they weren't being used by ASLEF members at that point, but neither the TOCs nor Porterbrook can pretend this has come out of the blue, or that ASLEF's stance has suddenly changed.

 

[Peter Sarf]

ASLEF made it clear years ago that they weren't happy about the cabs. They didn't need to black them as they weren't being used by ASLEF members at that point, but neither the TOCs nor Porterbrook can pretend this has come out of the blue, or that ASLEF's stance has suddenly changed.

I suppose someone ignored the issue in the hope that it would go away - have seen that in my job. Also possible that no one wanted to burden the idea with too many problems at its early stage.

 

[craigybagel]

I suppose someone ignored the issue in the hope that it would go away - have seen that in my job. Also possible that no one wanted to burden the idea with too many problems at its early stage.

I don't have any first hand knowledge, but I find that just as plausible a theory as the inevitable "the unions are being awkward" posts.

 

[squizzler]

Regarding cab air conditioning it seems regrettable that more effort was not put into the human interface at an earlier stage. But on the flip side, if the trains and their drivers have functioned in the southeast and London with its notable "heat island" effect resulting from overdevelopment, would the cabs not be a little more bearable in the slightly fresher Northwest?

 

[Mrs. Fortescue]

So (and I'll appreciate that this is somewhat provocative) the union's stance is that they won't allow trains to be introduced that will increase capacity and thus permit better social distancing, because their drivers want air conditioning, despite the fact that identical trains (other than a diesel engine, and a change to the number on the front) have been running around the north of England and elsewhere for the last few years without it.

It's just as well ASLEF don't have NHS staff on their books. "Sorry, we refuse to staff these hastily prepared new COVID wards as the working conditions aren't quite ideal for us in a perfect world, even though they are just the same as we were working in yesterday."

Provocative, but not unfair.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Regarding cab air conditioning it seems regrettable that more effort was not put into the human interface at an earlier stage. But on the flip side, if the trains and their drivers have functioned in the southeast and London with its notable "heat island" effect resulting from overdevelopment, would the cabs not be a little more bearable in the slightly fresher Northwest?

Does get very muggy around Manchester and Liverpool as they've had recent developments too but I see your point. Plus Thameslink is underground for part of the journey.

I think this will be one of the more forgettable projects for UK trains. Would an extra fleet of 4 or even 3-car 331s with batteries have been more practical? The 3s doubling up and the 4s providing more capacity than a 319 or 2x15X

Not to mention air-con for everybody!

 

[furnessvale]

Does get very muggy around Manchester and Liverpool as they've had recent developments too but I see your point. Plus Thameslink is underground for part of the journey.

I think this will be one of the more forgettable projects for UK trains. Would an extra fleet of 4 or even 3-car 331s with batteries have been more practical? The 3s doubling up and the 4s providing more capacity than a 319 or 2x15X

Not to mention air-con for everybody!

Do these cabs not have an opening window?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Do these cabs not have an opening window?

Think.they do but how much air really comes in when you're stopping every few minutes? That's why I don't put the windows down much in my car in town in summer either.

 

[craigybagel]

Do these cabs not have an opening window?

Great until you can't hear the sound of the AWS or vigilance going off over the wind noise. It's a frequent issue on 75mph Sprinters - I hate to think how bad it is on a 100mph 319.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I don't think it is an fair expectation that a worker needs to open a window to receive ventilation in their workplace. I gave up on that 20 years ago when I switched employer.

IMHO the class 319s became a problem for their owner as soon as the ink was dry on the class 700 deal. Perhaps they should have been on top of their asset base and decided whether a midlife upgrade was financially viable. From the photos I have seen of the 319/769 cab it does seem very hemmed in, but whether as much as an ERTMS 158 cab I don't know.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't think it is an fair expectation that a worker needs to open a window to receive ventilation in their workplace. I gave up on that 20 years ago when I switched employer.

<SNIP>

Well I really must be an old fogey. I am retired now, but when I was working I felt very fortunate indeed to be in a position where opening a window provided ventilation. For millions of workers the ability to adjust your environment by lowering or raising a window would be a luxury. IMO expectations are exceeding reasonable provision by employers but, as I say, I am an old fogey.

 

[DGH 1]

Well I really must be an old fogey. I am retired now, but when I was working I felt very fortunate indeed to be in a position where opening a window provided ventilation. For millions of workers the ability to adjust your environment by lowering or raising a window would be a luxury. IMO expectations are exceeding reasonable provision by employers but, as I say, I am an old fogey.

I'm no old fogey, but I agree with you on this issue of ventilation, personally i find Modern trains with air conditioning and no vents or windows that you can open yourself claustrophobic, especially on hot days.

 

[Eccles1983]

Well I really must be an old fogey. I am retired now, but when I was working I felt very fortunate indeed to be in a position where opening a window provided ventilation. For millions of workers the ability to adjust your environment by lowering or raising a window would be a luxury. IMO expectations are exceeding reasonable provision by employers but, as I say, I am an old fogey.

Do them millions of workers have to rely and act on hearing alarms as alike, and have regular hearing tests? Have you ever opened your car window at 70+ mph and tried to listen to the radio? Let me know if you can hear the shipping forecast whilst doing so.

And then entering tunnels with no ventilation inside and then get their workplace filled with diesel soot and fumes because the cab is still despite the window being open still above 30c+

The days of putting people down t'pit are gone.

 

[Richard Scott]

I'm no old fogey, but I agree with you on this issue of ventilation, personally i find Modern trains with air conditioning and no vents or windows that you can open yourself claustrophobic, especially on hot days.

I agree, not a big fan of air conditioning especially as suffer from sinus issues. An attack of that on anything air conditioned can be hell when can't get fresh air. i know that's a personal view but I'd happily do without it. Before anyone says about workplace I work in a place with no air conditioning and can't open a window and building is 3 years old. Supposed to be a breathing building, well it doesn't! I'd happily drive a 769 if they don't want to and I'd get paid more!

 

[Ribbleman]

Presumably the issue of cab cooling on the 769s for Northern has been brought into focus by local ASLEF officials becoming aware that the sets for GWR are to be equipped. In addition, the 150s transferred from GWR that are fitted with cab cooling are bound to draw attention to the lack of this equipment on existing Northern sets, whilst at the same time demonstrating that 30 year old trains can be upgraded if the will is there.

 

[stuu]

I don't think it is an fair expectation that a worker needs to open a window to receive ventilation in their workplace. I gave up on that 20 years ago when I switched employer.

Is this a joke?

 

[DGH 1]

I agree, not a big fan of air conditioning especially as suffer from sinus issues. An attack of that on anything air conditioned can be hell when can't get fresh air. i know that's a personal view but I'd happily do without it. Before anyone says about workplace I work in a place with no air conditioning and can't open a window and building is 3 years old. Supposed to be a breathing building, well it doesn't! I'd happily drive a 769 if they don't want to and I'd get paid more!

Talking about air conditioning and having sinus issues, I often get a metallic tinge/ sensation in mine especially when the air con is first switched on / switched off. I don't know if that's something particular to myself or anybody else gets it. So i wonder how or if it might affect drivers in the confines of a compact cab working environment.

 

[WAO]

Cab air conditioning should be seen as essential these days, as it aids driver vigilance and reduces fatigue.

Commercial vehicle cabs (let alone private cars!) often have it, at little extra cost. Why do our decision makers miss the obvious?

WAO

 

[Roose]

Is this a joke?

Certainly made me laugh!

(Once I stopped shaking my head in bewilderment)

 

[Wyrleybart]

Certainly made me laugh!

(Once I stopped shaking my head in bewilderment)

I am assuming neither of you have had to work in a cab at 100mph with the cab window open

 

[175001]

Whilst listening out to bigial

I am assuming neither of you have had to work in a cab at 100mph with the cab window open

Exactly, whilst having to listen out for multiple alarms, tones, bells and whistles.

 

[furnessvale]

I am assuming neither of you have had to work in a cab at 100mph with the cab window open

The last cab I was in at 100mph didn't need an open window to ensure adequate ventilation.

 

[LowLevel]

1980s cabs are awful environments in which to work. If FGW managed to fit air cooling to their 153s having these devices fitted with a functional system should be quite plausible and it's irritating that this wasn't considered a priority at the design stage.

It isn't as simple as opening a window, the solar gain from them baking in the sun in sidings and stations means the whole thing just radiates heat.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

No knowing the engine placement on the 769s, is there any mitigation for engine heat in the cab, that obviously doesn't exist on a 319?
Honestly I think they should be put into service, and retro fitted with the aircon when they can (a specified period of time to keep the unions happy)

 

[jopsuk]

I'm going to take a guess that ASLEF have been unhappy about 319 cabs for a log time, but have been told to lump it as they're in service as is. And then someone smart noted that the conversion to 769 made them for such purposes a new class.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm going to take a guess that ASLEF have been unhappy about 319 cabs for a log time, but have been told to lump it as they're in service as is. And then someone smart noted that the conversion to 769 made them for such purposes a new class.

Should have called them 319/5s!

 

[Roose]

I am assuming neither of you have had to work in a cab at 100mph with the cab window open

Thank you for your interest.

I haven't.

Would 90mph validate my opinion in yout view?

 

[Class 170101]

What people mus reember is that trains last 30 years - generally cars don't last that long.

 

[Geoff DC]

What people mus reember is that trains last 30 years - generally cars don't last that long.

However a quality built car will last 30 years with good care & maintenance, my 1998 Mercedes C230 is to my mind as good as anything I could buy now and I doubt the build quality would match.

 

[edwin_m]

What people mus reember is that trains last 30 years - generally cars don't last that long.

However a quality built car will last 30 years with good care & maintenance, my 1998 Mercedes C230 is to my mind as good as anything I could buy now and I doubt the build quality would match.

I think the point is that cars (and to some extend buses) are on average replaced much more frequently and the replacements can incorporate improvements such as aircon. With trains it's a case of expensive (and potentially unreliable) retrofitting or having an environment that lags behind the competition. Most people these days will be driving cars less than ten years old, most of which in turn had aircon built in from new.