Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Islineclear3_1]

Getting back on topic, are there any updates on the 319 flex project? Has any rebuilding work started yet?

 

[WatcherZero]

Is questioning where they would be stabled going off topic?

 

[507021]

Is questioning where they would be stabled going off topic?

I don't think it is.

 

[Greybeard33]

Seems like a slow phase-in for testing purposes, very sensible.

More likely they will spend the rest of the day on the Wigan NW to Alderley Edge via Bolton service. Not mentioned in the Merseytravel document because it is outside the Merseytravel area.

The extension of a couple of peak services to Southport is a concession to the campaign against Southport losing its direct service to Oxford Road and Piccadilly.

 

[Dai Corner]

Five are being leased for use in Wales


http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-electro-diesel-multiple-units-for-wales.html

UK: The Welsh Government is to provide £1·9m and operator Arriva Trains Wales £1m to lease five Class 319 Flex electro-diesel multiple-units for use on the Wales & Borders franchise from 2018 until at least 2021.

First announced by Porterbrook Leasing and Northern franchise operator Arriva in December 2016, the Class 319 Flex concept is based on fitting diesel alternator powerpacks to the driving cars of four-car dual-system EMUs made surplus by the delivery of Siemens Class 700 EMUs for the Thameslink route.

The five units for the Wales & Borders franchise have not been allocated to specific routes, but will allow Class 150 and 158 DMUs to be taken out of service to be modified to comply with Persons of Reduced Mobility requirements. They would also provide opportunities for the next Wales & Borders franchisee to increase overall capacity.

'I have made no secret of the difficulty in adding good quality rolling stock in Wales and am delighted that, by working with Arriva Trains Wales and others, we’ve been able to secure these extra trains’, said Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure Ken Skates. ‘The agreement to secure these trains is one part of a number of agreements with rail industry bodies that ensure that the majority of the current Wales & Borders fleet will comply with Persons of Reduced Mobility regulations by January 1 2020.'

 

[t_star2001uk]

Has this thing actually been converted and turned a wheel yet???

 

[CosherB]

Has this thing actually been converted and turned a wheel yet???

Perhaps we can keep the specific ATW debate in the following thread?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143104&page=63

Dai Corner has rather unhelpfully posted the same story in two different threads!

 

[Dai Corner]

Perhaps we can keep the specific ATW debate in the following thread?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143104&page=63

Dai Corner has rather unhelpfully posted the same story in two different threads!

Sorry. I felt it was relevant to both.

 

[ac6000cw]

Sorry. I felt it was relevant to both.

It is - this thread is titled: "Porterbrook to produce bi-mode cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s", so who is leasing some of them is on-topic as far as I can see. But double posting the same thing in different threads is usually a bad idea because it fragments the subsequent discussion.

 

[CosherB]

Plus we now have a new thread!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=150485

 

[IanXC]

In light of todays news of 769s being ordered for Arriva Trains Wales,
I will now clarify which content should be in which thread:

• 769 concept and delivery into service with Northern
• Wales and Borders franchise consultation and progress towards re-letting
• 769s for Arriva Trains Wales

Many thanks

 

[Rick1984]

Surely these are tri- mode as they can operate on overhead supply, third rail or diesel?

The ultimate "go anywhere" train.

 

[Bungle965]

Surely these are tri- mode as they can operate on overhead supply, third rail or diesel?

The ultimate "go anywhere" train.

I believe the third rail shoes are being removed.
Sam

 

[Rick1984]

Ah. Technically they could use all three forms though

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The diesel power packs are apparently emulating the 3rd rail, so on paper these should be able to run off the juice with very little modification. The fact that they won't be operating in any 3rd rail routes means they don't need the capability. May as well remove the shoes so they don't damage\get damaged by the infrastructure in the area

 

[edwin_m]

The 319 has non-retractable shoes and I believe this puts it out of gauge for operation away from the third rail, with the Midland being specially gauged to allow it. So if the shoes were left on for operation elsewhere they would probably go missing quite soon! I don't know how easy it would be to fit retractable shoes, but I suspect quite difficult. They could be used with shoes in place for a specific route where the non-electrified bits were similarly gauge cleared for the shoegear, and this might work for something like Ashford-Hastings, but they couldn't then be common user over a wider non-electrified network.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Have the 'unmodified' 319s working for Northern already had the shoes removed?

 

[rebmcr]

Surely these are tri- mode as they can operate on overhead supply, third rail or diesel?

The ultimate "go anywhere" train.

Well, they had overhead & third-rail to begin with, but were not bi-mode, just dual-voltage.

These will be dual-voltage bi-modes now.

 

[507021]

I believe the third rail shoes are being removed.
Sam

The 769s are retaining their third rail pick up shoes.

 

[AM9]

The 769s are retaining their third rail pick up shoes.

Is the gauge clearance thing for shoes because of objects deliberately placed so that they intrude into the 3rd rail plus shoes area for operational reasons, or is it unintentional because of:

a) historical practice from when there wasn't such a thing as third rail
or
b) uncontrolled heaps of ballast etc.​

or any combination of the above?

 

[aleggatta]

Is the gauge clearance thing for shoes because of objects deliberately placed so that they intrude into the 3rd rail plus shoes area for operational reasons, or is it unintentional because of:

a) historical practice from when there wasn't such a thing as third rail
or
b) uncontrolled heaps of ballast etc.​

or any combination of the above?

I would probably add
C) APC magnets mounted out of guage for fixed shoe gear (I.e. Higher)

 

[physics34]

why would the keep the shoes on? Doesnt make sense. Leaving the bar on maybe.....

Unless of course some of the 769s are planned for DC750v/Diesel flex...... (north downs line has been mentioned before)

 

[507021]

why would the keep the shoes on? Doesnt make sense. Leaving the bar on maybe.....

Unless of course some of the 769s are planned for DC750v/Diesel flex...... (north downs line has been mentioned before)

It does make sense. Keeping the pick up shoes on offers more flexibility for their deployment, particularly in the South East.

I think out of all the solutions to providing extra diesel stock, this is the best one so far.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It does make sense. Keeping the pick up shoes on offers more flexibility for their deployment, particularly in the South East.

I think out of all the solutions to providing extra diesel stock, this is the best one so far.

Away from the Southern, the only place I could see the shoegear being any use would be on the Borderlands, and even then only if services were extended beyond Bidston to either Birkenhead or the Liverpool Loop*. If that were to happen, it could even incorporate battery packs though running to Wrexham would probably mean the generator packs still needed due to the distance.

*=before anyone asks, yes a 319/20m Mk3 does fit in the loop, the idea that only the lower roofline of the PEP stock can fit is an urban myth. In fact, the vehicle used as a "model" for gauging within the Merseyrail tunnels when work is carried out is in fact... a class 66!

 

[AM9]

It does make sense. Keeping the pick up shoes on offers more flexibility for their deployment, particularly in the South East.

I think out of all the solutions to providing extra diesel stock, this is the best one so far.

So the point that I was trying to make was: are these intrusions into the space swept by fixed shoes and their support arms there because it is important for them to be there or is it just local practice/convenience/sloppy alignment (as would be the case for ballast stacked much higher than it should be)?
If the general practice was to keep the 3rd rail functional space clear on all routes (in the future), it would expand the operational flexibility of multi-system trains like the 319/769s. I presume the reason that many OLE routes are not cleared for standard 319s is also to do with the fixed shoe clearances, e.g. GEML.

 

[507021]

So the point that I was trying to make was: are these intrusions into the space swept by fixed shoes and their support arms there because it is important for them to be there or is it just local practice/convenience/sloppy alignment (as would be the case for ballast stacked much higher than it should be)?
If the general practice was to keep the 3rd rail functional space clear on all routes (in the future), it would expand the operational flexibility of multi-system trains like the 319/769s. I presume the reason that many OLE routes are not cleared for standard 319s is also to do with the fixed shoe clearances, e.g. GEML.

I don't know whether the pick up shoes are removed because they just aren't going to be used (i.e. Northern) or whether it's a clearance issue. Does anyone know if the London Midland units have had their pick up shoes removed?

All I do know is that the third rail pick up shoes will be retained for the 769s, but whether that's on all units or specified on specific orders, I don't know. I guess we'll find out if this is the case when the first 769s are completed.

 

[edwin_m]

Some (all?) later dual-voltage units have retractable shoes but 319s don't.

If the shoes are retained then there needs to be some way of making them electrically dead when the diesel is feeding power into the DC bus. There's presumably some existing switchgear that does this when on AC power but I don't know if it would also work in the diesel mode.

 

[WatcherZero]

So the point that I was trying to make was: are these intrusions into the space swept by fixed shoes and their support arms there because it is important for them to be there or is it just local practice/convenience/sloppy alignment (as would be the case for ballast stacked much higher than it should be)?
If the general practice was to keep the 3rd rail functional space clear on all routes (in the future), it would expand the operational flexibility of multi-system trains like the 319/769s. I presume the reason that many OLE routes are not cleared for standard 319s is also to do with the fixed shoe clearances, e.g. GEML.

Clearance wont be there because they didn't need to clear it, which means testing and possibly relocating offending items before such a unit could operate.

The book says the 3rd rail shoe clearance is physically 34.5mm above rail (including a 9.5mm safety margin for error/wear) but a minimum of 75mm is required for static electrical clearance and a minimum of 25mm for direct electrical passing clearance. It says the previous standard was 40mm physical clearance including a 15mm safety margin.

Things that could foul the shoe include marker signs, worn track on junctions (where the base track level has worn down lower than the turnout track level), pedestrian crossings, pedestrian deterrent paving, signalling equipment.

 

[Malcolmffc]

It does make sense. Keeping the pick up shoes on offers more flexibility for their deployment, particularly in the South East.

I think out of all the solutions to providing extra diesel stock, this is the best one so far.

But the 319s aren't ever coming back to 3rd rail land. And even if they did, the cost of reinstating the shoe gear would be far lower than what would be needed to modify the infrastructure elsewhere on the network to accommodate them.

 

[rebmcr]

Before anyone asks, yes a 319/20m Mk3 does fit in the loop, the idea that only the lower roofline of the PEP stock can fit is an urban myth. In fact, the vehicle used as a "model" for gauging within the Merseyrail tunnels when work is carried out is in fact... a class 66!

Is it 23m Mk3's that don't fit, then? Wiki says a 66 is 21m, so that would make sense.