Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Bletchleyite]

Adding the diesel engine will make it heavier particularly with the fuel added. I would suggest the 319 will be more expensive on Track Access Charges than an un-modified one.

I'd agree it'll be heavier and so more expensive than an unmodified Class 319, but probably not heavier nor more expensive than a pair of Class 150s. OK, it'll have a transformer and pantograph that the 150s wouldn't, but it'll be powered by a more efficient, more modern engine or set of engines which could well be far lighter.
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The 319 only has one motor coach, so is it not more likely that a number of diesel generators, (each providing a suitable proportion of the combined traction & hotel services demand), would be distributed around the other coaches.

To me the most sensible way is to have these under the driving trailer vehicles connected to the 750VDC feed from the third-rail equipment already on those coaches. This would necessitate very little additional equipment.

 

[northwichcat]

How will track access charges work for bi-modes? Currently electric cost a lot more because electricity consumption is included. Will bi-mode have a fixed rate which is worked on using electricity for something like 90% of its mileage?

 

[edwin_m]

How will track access charges work for bi-modes? Currently electric cost a lot more because electricity consumption is included. Will bi-mode have a fixed rate which is worked on using electricity for something like 90% of its mileage?

Most recent stock has meters on board so is charged for electricity actually used. Fitting them to these trains would avoid any sort of debate. Alternatively with all the data that gets recorded via TRUST etc it shouldn't be too hard to work out how much of a unit's mileage is on electrified routes and charge for that.

 

[swt_passenger]

To me the most sensible way is to have these under the driving trailer vehicles connected to the 750VDC feed from the third-rail equipment already on those coaches. This would necessitate very little additional equipment.

The existing 750V DC feed will pass along all four coaches including the non-driving trailer anyway. Connecting into it on the latter vehicle would be no more difficult than connecting into it anywhere else, there must be existing junction boxes at all the coach ends for instance. I don't think adding a new junction box would be a show stopper anyway, if the requirement was to share the weight out more.

 

[1179_Clee2]

319 427 has now been at Brush for the best part of 3 weeks!
Is it being fitted with diesel engines or is it still a rumor?

Can anybody confirm if any work has been done or are they still looking if the concept will work?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

319 427 has now been at Brush for the best part of 3 weeks!
Is it being fitted with diesel engines or is it still a rumor?

Can anybody confirm if any work has been done or are they still looking if the concept will work?

If it is more than a rumour, I'd expect it to take a fair bit longer than 3 weeks to determine whether the idea has legs!

 

[superkev]

Perhaps they will tap into the class 230 Ford engine modules. Probably ok for last mile operation. Also I don't think off th
shelf 700 volt alternators or generators are easy to source.
K

 

[Clarence Yard]

Perhaps they will tap into the class 230 Ford engine modules. Probably ok for last mile operation. Also I don't think off th
shelf 700 volt alternators or generators are easy to source.
K

Ford engines!! I hope not. You need something a bit more chunky to power these units.

Something like a MAN D2876 would be more like it. If they fit, one of those bad boys at each end would give you 1060hp (780kw) in total diesel power per unit. That would give you the potential of some really tasty performance on diesel.

There are quite a few firms that could make an alternator to fit and surprisingly enough some are still making them in this country!

It will be interesting to see what combination Porterbrook are actually going for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see no reason why the Ford modules wouldn't work, you'd just need pairs of them. Two on each unpowered coach (so six per unit) should, given the above discussion, do the trick.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Porterbrook news release, dated today at
https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/news/...rn-to-introduce-bi-mode-class-319-flex-trains

Porterbrook Leasing is pleased to announce that it has committed to deliver to Northern, a variant of a Class 319 electric train which is able to operate seamlessly over electrified and non-electrified routes, spreading the benefits of electrification to more rail users. The project is supported by Rail North, representing local authorities in the north of England.
...
The Class 319 Flex concept is designed to create a bi-mode train by fitting two diesel powered alternators, one under each of the driving trailer cars. The diesel alternators provide power to the existing traction and auxiliary equipment to allow the EMU to operate without an overhead or 3rd rail supply. The systems will provide power through the train’s DC bus, avoiding any significant changes to the existing equipment and creating a unit capable of operating from a number of different power sources whilst maintaining its full capabilities on electrified routes.
...
Concept design work is now complete and work has started with Wabtec/Brush on the detailed design phase of the project.
...
The first units will be in passenger service with train operator Arriva Northern by spring 2018 and from then on will be available to a wide range of operators who will be able to make full use of electrically powered rolling stock on partially electrified routes.

 

[northwichcat]

I've updated the thread title to reflect the above.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Just about anything that brings more capacity to the Northern area is good news if it avoids the waiting from delayed electrification and cascades.

I assume there will be loads of 319s available? Four dozen if Wiki is right...

 

[northwichcat]

Just about anything that brings more capacity to the Northern area is good news if it avoids the waiting from delayed electrification and cascades.

I assume there will be loads of 319s available? Four dozen if Wiki is right...

It's not clear how many are being converted and the article hints at them being used by multiple operators with Northern getting the first batch.

 

[Elecman]

North downs a possibility?

 

[MikePJ]

I'd guess the Buxton line might be a possible deployment - it's electrified from Manchester to Hazel Grove already, and the steep gradients up to Buxton would demonstrate the performance of the new units in diesel mode.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Elecman: Beat you by two minutes on the North Downs thread!

I wonder where else these vehicles might find use?

Edit: I see everyone is wondering the same...

AS

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I expect Northern has agreed to take a few units (2-3?) for evaluation, much like LM has done with the Vivarail 230.
It's not clear if any money is changing hands at this stage.
You wouldn't bet the farm on a feasibility report.

 

[Elecman]

Will a 319 minus pan fit the Northern Line tunnels in Liverpool? Could then easily extend the Ormskirk services to Preston and Kirkby services to Wigan?

 

[dgl]

It also sounds like the 750v DC 3rd rail equipment is staying, interesting times as GWR could use some for it's Gatwick services freeing up diesel only trains for somewhere else.
Also are there any services that SWT could use them on such as the services form Salisbury to Southampton and beyond?

 

[Domh245]

Will be interesting to see what engines they go for. The proposal is for just 2 engines on the whole train, so it won't be the Vivarail Transit engines.

 

[Muzer]

Ooh. If one unit retains both AC and third rail capability do you think this'll be the first ever tri-mode? (Nothing immediately springs to mind that can do all three in the UK). I can't imagine any reasonable situations in which that'd be useful though (unless Southen introduces a through service from Milton Keynes to Uckfield or something...!)

 

[Elecman]

:

Ooh. If one unit retains both AC and third rail capability do you think this'll be the first ever tri-mode? (Nothing immediately springs to mind that can do all three in the UK). I can't imagine any reasonable situations in which that'd be useful though (unless Southen introduces a through service from Milton Keynes to Uckfield or something...!)

Hunts Cross to Blackpool viia Ormskirk could eventually use all 3 modes, or Hunts Cross to Morecambe.

 

[Muzer]

Reminds me of the time when I heard a delay announced due to overhead wire problems at Hunts Cross...

 

[Elecman]

The OLE does get close to Hunts Cross

 

[ac6000cw]

The Class 319 Flex concept is designed to create a bi-mode train by fitting two diesel powered alternators, one under each of the driving trailer cars. The diesel alternators provide power to the existing traction and auxiliary equipment to allow the EMU to operate without an overhead or 3rd rail supply.

So a 750hp QSK19 at each end maybe?

But this part:

The design also has provision to cater for a range of operations, either as an alternative to existing DMUs or offering more performance if required through the fitment of additional batteries for non-electrified operations.

...suggests more of a 'last few miles' capability on straight diesel power rather than full EMU equivalent performance.

 

[bastien]

Could these do the Paddington-Oxford stoppers, or does that need to be 110mph units?

 

[dgl]

Ooh. If one unit retains both AC and third rail capability do you think this'll be the first ever tri-mode? (Nothing immediately springs to mind that can do all three in the UK). I can't imagine any reasonable situations in which that'd be useful though (unless Southen introduces a through service from Milton Keynes to Uckfield or something...!)

They seem to be saying that this is the first of it's kind in the UK so I'm guessing tri-mode as (although not in service yet) the 80X are true bi-mode already.

 

[northwichcat]

I expect Northern has agreed to take a few units (2-3?) for evaluation, much like LM has done with the Vivarail 230.
It's not clear if any money is changing hands at this stage.
You wouldn't bet the farm on a feasibility report.

It'll be interesting to see the full revised rolling stock plans. We don't yet know when Northern will get the 150s from GWR and if they will all transfer.

 

[Mikey C]

Sounds fascinating, and a great way of making the most of existing electrified lines.

I've said it here before, but there's a lot of pressure to eliminate diesels from big cities due to air quality issues, so such trains would be ideal when the main stations are already wired up

 

[northwichcat]

Ooh. If one unit retains both AC and third rail capability do you think this'll be the first ever tri-mode? (Nothing immediately springs to mind that can do all three in the UK). I can't imagine any reasonable situations in which that'd be useful though (unless Southen introduces a through service from Milton Keynes to Uckfield or something...!)

Porterbrook are in favour of removing the third rail equipment opposed to keeping it on the off-chance of them being used on 3rd rail routes in the future.