No, they're dual-voltage now. They'll be dual-voltage bi-mode after the upgrades. Tri-mode would have to involve something like Cable haulage as well as Electric and Engine.
Last edited:
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
- Thread starter northwichcat
- Start date
No, they're dual-voltage now. They'll be dual-voltage bi-mode after the upgrades. Tri-mode would have to involve something like Cable haulage as well as Electric and Engine.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
That means that they will initially have to be used in localised shuttle form.
Routes which might work:
- Preston/Lancaster-Morecambe/Oxenholme-Windermere
- Wigan-Bolton-Victoria-Rochdale/Stalybridge/Airport
Longer routes would take up too many units (eg Buxton-Blackpool, Liverpool-Calder Valley-Leeds).
Airport-Wigan-Windermere is probably too far for a fleet of 4.
Generally, you want a relatively short and unstressed diesel section unless class 150-type performance can be achieved.
I doubt if Liverpool-Blackpool is on the Flex list, unless the wiring slips further.
If a test section near to Allerton is needed, maybe the Liverpool-Airport (diverted via CLC) could be used, using AC at each end and diesel in the middle.
I doubt the changeover from AC to diesel can be done on the run. Thameslink did all its changeovers while stationary at Farringdon.
I was reading that the LM Vivarail 230 trial was being funded by West Midlands Rail, the local transport grouping aiming to take over the metro franchise one day.
It might well be that Rail North will do the same for the 319 Flex project, until they and Northern decide whether to go for a sizeable fleet.
Any deployment will free up DMUs for cascade elsewhere, as well as solving the "no wires" problem.
This is the Railway Gazette version of the story: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nd-northern-to-develop-electro-diesel-mu.html
There is nothing yet on either the Northern or Rail North web sites.
Last edited:
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I think it could well be the initial route even if the wiring is completed. Remember IPEMU was tested on a fully electrified route so that if there was a problem with the battery the pantograph could be put up.
My guess would be Liverpool to Blackpool initially and then moved to Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Obvious journeys? Reality says otherwise. On the Kirkby to Wigan route the majority of passengers are at the eastern end (Orrell and Pemberton) with significant numbers travelling beyond Wigan. And the flows are bi-directional in as much as there are commuters travelling to Manchester and students travelling to the sixth form college close to Orrell station. This is also why Manchester to Kirkby services operate via Atherton, in order to serve scholars within Wigan MBC. Usage west of Orrell is very much lower; indeed if there was a reversing facility available at Orrell it would be easy to justify peak-only operation west of there.
The resiting of the link between the ex-Liverpool and ex-Manchester routes to Skelmersdale however will certainly be successful and not just going towards Liverpool. But this scheme will not need bi-mode units of any sort.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Indeed, the easiest way will just be to extend Merseyrail to Skelmersdale and have the connection between EMU and DMU there.
To be fair, it's probably just as easy to include it on here because this could be the Merseyrail planners wet dream, the ability to reopen a lot of track and services without the added nuisance of having to electrify anything. Lime st services via Edge Lane and Ford to Ormskirk/Wigan, Cheshire lines services from Hunts Cross. As well as all the Wrexham/Helsby ideas.
This analysis does nothing to address suppressed demand. There is a lot of research showing that many more journeys are made if a change is not involved.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Except that Merseytravel have already identified that the largest amount of suppressed demand lies in the non-rail-connected town of Skelmersdale, hence their promotion of the scheme to "divert" both Kirkby lines there! I also happen to know the area somewhat and can assure you that demand from Kirkby and points south is almost entirely towards Liverpool. While through passengers already have a better service via St Helens with longer distance services to Scotland due as soon as appropriate rolling stock has been delivered. Once again I say let us address the needs of the railway and its users as they are today and not one hundred years ago.
Bevan Price
Established Member
- Joined
- 22 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 7,851
A Class 319 currently weighs about 140 tons. Adding two powerful diesel engines, generators, fuel tanks & ancillary fittings will increase the weight by what ? Maybe 10 tons?
That would give a train weight of about 150 tons - almost the same as a Class 150/1 (4 cars), or slightly heavier than a 150/2. So, to match the performance of a 150, they will need about 2 x 570 hp engines. In addition, the extra weight would reduce the performance in all-electric mode, possibly making 319s even more prone to slipping in wet weather.
Where they will use them is pure speculation. Blackpool should be electrified before the "D319s" are available and tested. If only 4 are "rebuilt" initially, and assuming they need at least one spare, so there should be 3 available for everyday services. My thoughts ?
Liverpool - Halton Curve - Chester would be easy (assuming Northern operates it, rather than ATW) - and convenient for Allerton depot.
Manchester - Blackburn / Clitheroe might be another possible candidate
In addition, already mentioned are the Manchester - Windermere or Barrow services, though the latter are more likely to receive some of the new-build dmus.
I would tend to forget about the Buxton line. Sprinters (150 or 156) can just about reach 40 - 45 mph on the steepest sections; anything less powerful, or prone to slipping - forget about it. Buxton line would not be a good location for D319s.
That would give a train weight of about 150 tons - almost the same as a Class 150/1 (4 cars), or slightly heavier than a 150/2. So, to match the performance of a 150, they will need about 2 x 570 hp engines. In addition, the extra weight would reduce the performance in all-electric mode, possibly making 319s even more prone to slipping in wet weather.
Where they will use them is pure speculation. Blackpool should be electrified before the "D319s" are available and tested. If only 4 are "rebuilt" initially, and assuming they need at least one spare, so there should be 3 available for everyday services. My thoughts ?
Liverpool - Halton Curve - Chester would be easy (assuming Northern operates it, rather than ATW) - and convenient for Allerton depot.
Manchester - Blackburn / Clitheroe might be another possible candidate
In addition, already mentioned are the Manchester - Windermere or Barrow services, though the latter are more likely to receive some of the new-build dmus.
I would tend to forget about the Buxton line. Sprinters (150 or 156) can just about reach 40 - 45 mph on the steepest sections; anything less powerful, or prone to slipping - forget about it. Buxton line would not be a good location for D319s.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Metro Centre - Newcastle - Morpeth - Chathill?
About a mile and a half from Metro Centre to the ECML, then nineteen miles to Morpeth (then a hundred yards of unelectrified headshunt).
100mph capabilities would be handy on the ECML (compared to a 75mph Pacer struggling to keep ahead of InterCity services).
Two units required to cover the Metro Centre - Newcastle - Morpeth - Newcastle - Metro Centre - Newcastle - Metro Centre diagram plus one on the peak time Chathill service and one as cover = four units. If there's one spare then I'm sure it'd be handy on the morning Saltburn - Middlesbrough - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle service (given how that can struggle for capacity due to the lack of InterCity services arriving on Tyneside at that time of the day).
(they'll be non-standard at Heaton, but they'll be non-standard wherever they end up, so I don't think that'd be a deal breaker)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It'd probably be cheaper to wire the headshunt than buy one of these, wouldn't it?
It is possible that Wallgate-Central could be needed as an alternative route at some point because of growth of Liverpool to Manchester traffic taking too many paths but that is probably decades away. Dual volt stock is the real game changer, Kirkby - Skelmersdale electrification will only get approval if it is AC. I have been criticised for saying this before: the priority should be electrifying Kirkby to Upholland and converting the latter into a Skelmersdale Parkway, linking in with local bus services. While this would be far less useful than a link into the town it would be much cheaper. Several miles of AC wires on a partly single line, platform extensions, a car park and some signal improvements to allow a half hourly service would probably cost £10-20m. A couple of miles of new track, electrics and a brand new station in town would cost £60m+ and may never get funding, its been all talk for years. Better to get something done and then push for a secone phase. While my suggestion could be done by 319 Flexs, its not worth Merseyrail loosing the benefits of having one type of rolling stock.
Is Newcastle to Metrocenter electrified?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Could the Metrocentre shuttle be separated from the Chathills?
HSTEd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 18,810
Based on the prices of electrification at 25kV you would be lucky to get the wires alone for £20m.
Even short simple, low performance, schemes cost £2m/track-km now. Considering this would be in the middle of nowhere with no grid access available that is suitable for a single phase draw of up to a megawatt you would be lucky to get that much.
Last edited:
Ha 319s getting diesels. these trains get everywhere! I'm going to guess the Diesel engines will be tied into the 750V DC system, and they'll just add a placard that says "DC = Diesel Current" in the cab.
Does anyone know whether its easier to generate 750v DC or 25kv AC with Diesel engines?
Does anyone know whether its easier to generate 750v DC or 25kv AC with Diesel engines?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If what's been posted elsewhere is correct Northern won't be getting additional 319s but they'll get bi-mode 319s instead of some electric only train 319s.
750V will be much easier, insulation for a start wont need to be anywhere near as beefy as it needs to be for 25kV. This will be via an alternator which gives out AC which will be rectified to produce DC, although as it is designed to use 750V traction current it possibly won't be very smooth DC.
JohnElliott
Member
- Joined
- 15 Sep 2014
- Messages
- 249
I don't know what they're like now, but I remember being in the cab of one when it was new and there were three buttons: "Pantograph up", "Select AC" and "Pantograph down/Select DC".
The mechanical input to the generator is irrelevant, it's just a rotating shaft which would be the same for a diesel, petrol, steam or gas turbine. Any generator fitted these days would be a three-phase ac alternator. They are more power, weight and space efficient than older technology DC generators. Its output would be fed to a three or six phase rectifier set to give a fairly low ripple DC, - probably better than comes off the ac transformer.
There would be no point generating 25kV, - the main function of the HV transformers fitted to all 25kV EMUs is to bring the voltage down to less than 1kV so that it can be rectified and used to generate the traction DC which would normally be somewhere between 600 and 900VDC.
That would mean there are no plans to use them on lines not part of the electrification program e.g. Buxton. They could be switched once Windermere and Blackpool lines have been electrified or more could have diesel engines installed if insufficient DMUs are available to replace the pacers.
childwallblues
Established Member
.
Liverpool - Halton Curve - Chester would be easy (assuming Northern operates it, rather than ATW) - and convenient for Allerton depot.
[/QUOTE]
Going into the ATW franchise.
Liverpool - Halton Curve - Chester would be easy (assuming Northern operates it, rather than ATW) - and convenient for Allerton depot.
[/QUOTE]
Going into the ATW franchise.
Foggycorner
Member
I do hope that these are a success then some of the spare 319s can be converted and sent down to the uckfield and ashford lines to replace the 171dmus
the 171s can then be sent north to were they are needed having been converted to 3 car on the way
the 171s can then be sent north to were they are needed having been converted to 3 car on the way
unless they had SDO fitted at the same time, they would be useless on the ashford line without platform extensions, both I think would be considered 'major works', however I could see 319's displacing 171's on uckfield to allow 4 car working on ashford, but very unlikely IMHO.
319s are not passed to run through Oxted tinnel due to gauging issues
I expect performance of these things on diesel is going to be somewhat lethargic, given the size of the engine that can be fitted under the floor is likely somewhat limited. so is suspect it will be limited numbers over fairly limited diesel sections, and the idea that these things will be popping up all over the place is I think somewhat fanciful as usual.
Are the ladies photographing the 210 or is there something even more ratable through the bridge?Ohh, with diesel engines in the driving trailers is it back to the future?
(Not my image - found on Google)
I know it's unlikely that some of each driving trailer seats would be converted to the engine bay but at least this shows how it could look!
Cheers,
Mr Toad
Seasons Greetings
Could you direct me to where what's been posted elsewhere has been posted?
I also note that the ever reliable Wikipedia suggests that the power pack design developed for Adrian Shooter's class 230 dmu's will be used to power the Flex variant - Is the information reliable?
Will the Flex feature 2 power packs/fuel tanks per unit?
What is the wheel diameter of the class 319?
1179_Clee2
Member
Seasons Greetings
Could you direct me to where what's been posted elsewhere has been posted?
I also note that the ever reliable Wikipedia suggests that the power pack design developed for Adrian Shooter's class 230 dmu's will be used to power the Flex variant - Is the information reliable?
Will the Flex feature 2 power packs/fuel tanks per unit?
What is the wheel diameter of the class 319?
Platform 5 pocket books state that a Class 230 has a weight of the train at 76 t
A unmodified Class 319/4 has a weight of 152.8 t double the weight of a 230 without adding diesel engines.