Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[LNW-GW Joint]

387s to Heathrow? I must be out of the loop, where was this announced?

New thread on the subject: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-express-gwr-contract.162470/

 

[Domh245]

387s to Heathrow? I must be out of the loop, where was this announced?

This morning, see this thread

 

[Kite159]

I would imagine the passengers of the North Downs line will be very pleased to lose their Turbos in exchange for older stock (which will lack AC) which will increase their journey times due to the highly likely super slow acceleration of the 769s (after-all 319s are not the fastest off the blocks, and bolting a lot more weight won't help them go any faster).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would imagine the passengers of the North Downs line will be very pleased to lose their Turbos in exchange for older stock (which will lack AC)

To be fair, traditionally Class 166s also lack functional AC despite claims to be fitted with it. Though I think some of them may have been fitted with the (actually functional) Chiltern air cooling system more recently.

 

[northwichcat]

Well, well - what a difference a few days makes....... Now we have Class 769s going to GWR London Division to help free up Class 387s for Heathrow, and displace Class 165/166 diesels for GWRs Bristol and Devon/Cornwall areas. Some speculation (only that at the moment) that Northern may get West Midland based Class 323s to replace Class 319 (to make more Class 769s??).

I am sure the rumour mill will make a lot of all this until it is all properly confirmed.

By my reckoning so far:
- Northern have secured 32 x 319s, 8 of those to be converted to 769s with 5 x 319s only being leased until 2020 and the rest until 2025.
- LNW have 9 x 319s
- W&B have secured 5 x 319s to be converted to 769s
- GWR rumoured to be getting 19 x 319s converted to 769s.

That's still 21 x 319s not being leased at the December 2019 timetable change. Unless there's some other plan not in the public domain I doubt Porterbrook are desperate to get the pure 319s back from Northern.

 

[JonathanH]

To be fair, traditionally Class 166s also lack functional AC despite claims to be fitted with it. Though I think some of them may have been fitted with the (actually functional) Chiltern air cooling system more recently.

It is the GWR 165s that are getting a different cooling system and having the windows locked up. The 166s got a new system not long back which is a little bit better than the previous one (if noisy).

A 165 or 166 has been much better suited to the North Downs line than any Mark 3 derived unit. It remains to be seen what the operators think is a good interior design for the 769s on the North Downs Line. Both 319s (to some extent) and obviously 317/7s, 317/8s and 322s have been set up with extra luggage racks for Airport routes. That hasn't improved the ambiance for other passengers as you still end up with a narrow doorway, poor alignment of seats to windows and a more claustrophic feel than in a 165 / 166 - maybe opening them out around the doors like SWR 455s is the way forward.

I must go on a Renatus 321 for longer than eight minutes to see whether that interior has made things better.

 

[The_Engineer]

Unless there's some other plan not in the public domain I doubt Porterbrook are desperate to get the pure 319s back from Northern.

How about 26 x Class 323 units to come off lease from West Midland services? As these are also Porterbrook units I am sure some thought is being given to their use on Northern vice Class 319. Better to have Class 319s off lease than Class 323s must be Porterbrook's view.

Class 323s seat more than a 4-car Class 319, have better traction performance and less prone to wheelspin. In my own opinion, having been recently updated with a new traction package and very swish interiors, they are a much better prospect than Class 319s for Northern.

RIDER -my own speculation and opinion. Time will tell......

 

[Bletchleyite]

It remains to be seen what the operators think is a good interior design for the 769s on the North Downs Line

To me the Thameslink Cityflyer layout is just fine. 2+2 with wide aisles and decent legroom, good luggage provision (from the Gatwick days) etc as well as nice 2+1 First Class. Just change the seat covers and put them into service.

 

[northwichcat]

Class 323s seat more than a 4-car Class 319

Incorrect, unless you're comparing 319s with 2+2 seating with 323s with 3+2 seating. The PRM modified 319s with 3+2 seating have the same number of seats as the non-PRM modified 323s.

 

[Non Multi]

The 166s got a new system not long back which is a little bit better than the previous one (if noisy).

It's noisy because it's working*.

*still nowhere near as good as it should be, and is unreliable on hot sunny days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's noisy because it's working*.

*still nowhere near as good as it should be, and is unreliable on hot sunny days.

Oh dear. What is it about GWR and non-functional/unreliable aircon?

It is perfectly possible to design a reliable system (Class 350 and Electrostars), and to retrofit a reliable system (Chiltern).

Therefore, an unreliable system is a sign of one thing - being too cheap to fix it.

 

[Non Multi]

My favourite aspect of the 166 GWR refurb is the aesthetically pleasing black roof, *really ideal* for a train with dodgy aircon.

At least the 769s have basic forced air ventilation.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why so much demand for class 769 trains when there will shortly be a whole batch of 350/360/379 trains parked up which are much more modern, newer and higher quality?

It will be a travesty if such modern stock ends up parked up whilst stock that is over 30 years old hangs on and is given a second life, as looks increasingly likely. Still can't believe we're seeing 332s parked up as well to give work to a 30 year old 769.

There's going to be a whole load of mid life EMUS that it will be impossible to find work for almost yet still we're seeing tired stuff like the 319s given another life. Doesn't make sense to me.

Also gotta feel sorry for those GWR pax, going from old units, to modern and back to old again.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why so much demand for class 769 trains when there will shortly be a whole batch of 350/360/379 trains parked up which are much more modern, newer and higher quality?

All the confirmed 769s - Northern, W&B and GWR are needed ASAP, rather than at or after the December 2019 timetable change.

 

[The_Engineer]

Incorrect, unless you're comparing 319s with 2+2 seating with 323s with 3+2 seating. The PRM modified 319s with 3+2 seating have the same number of seats as the non-PRM modified 323s.

Sorry - I used the information I had to hand, which I now know must be out of date.

However, even with the same number of seats I still think Class 323s instead of Class 319s will be a better proposition for Northern.

 

[F Great Eastern]

So why not keep the 332s going until some better rolling stock is avaliable, than doing all these 769s which clearly won't be just a fix until the end of December 2019. There's now the real possibility that trains that will be approaching 35 years will be in service whilst trains approx half their age will be parked up in 2020.

 

[507021]

Sorry - I used the information I had to hand, which I now know must be out of date.

However, even with the same number of seats I still think Class 323s instead of Class 319s will be a better proposition for Northern.

I personally think the 323s are better trains than the 319s, as much as I like the latter. The 323s have better acceleration and I think they'd be able to operate in pairs (6x23m=138m compared to 8x20m=160m) on routes the 319s can't, which would boost capacity.

I suppose it's just a case of waiting to see what happens really.

 

[td97]

So why not keep the 332s going until some better rolling stock is avaliable, than doing all these 769s which clearly won't be just a fix until the end of December 2019. There's now the real possibility that trains that will be approaching 35 years will be in service whilst trains approx half their age will be parked up in 2020.

The 769 is supposed to be an easier unit to convert because it has a non-powered carriage in its 319 form (i.e. more room to put the diesel engine), and the fact that it is both AC and DC makes the electrical work simpler (at least in theory).

 

[td97]

By my reckoning so far:
- LNW have 9 x 319s

It has been mentioned that LNWR are planning to acquire further class 319 trains to improve capacity on the south WCML routes before the Aventras arrive

 

[507021]

It has been mentioned that LNWR are planning to acquire further class 319 trains to improve capacity on the south WCML routes before the Aventras arrive

I think it's quite likely WMT's extra 319s will be more /0s and/or /2s (or maybe the two off lease /3s), because a post on the WNXX forum suggests GWR's allocation of 769s will also be converted from the 319/4 subclass.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's quite likely WMT's extra 319s will be more /0s and/or /2s (or maybe the two off lease /3s), because a post on the WNXX forum suggests GWR's allocation of 769s will also be converted from the 319/4 subclass.

Yes please to more /2s, best seating on the south WCML in both classes.

 

[notlob.divad]

Does anyone know if there is andy difference that might make a 319/4 easier to convert? Versus a different subclass. Porterbrook started with these, so it may well be that they would like more /4s back in lieu of this rumour expansion in required units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know if there is andy difference that might make a 319/4 easier to convert? Versus a different subclass. Porterbrook started with these, so it may well be that they would like more /4s back in lieu of this rumour expansion in required units.

/4s have the most versatile seating layout - 2+2 with wide aisles and luggage racks.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'd still like to see Northern getting a fleet of FLIRT bi-modes or CAF coming up with one, but I haven't seen a big shift towards new ones yet?

Sorry, I meant bi-mode was higher up the agenda generally, not specifically in Northern, where I agree it should have been part of the procurement we've seen with this franchise. It is a pity that a lot of the new rolling stock isn't bi-mode.

 

[507021]

Does anyone know if there is andy difference that might make a 319/4 easier to convert? Versus a different subclass. Porterbrook started with these, so it may well be that they would like more /4s back in lieu of this rumour expansion in required units.

I think it's likely the 319/4 was selected to be converted first because there are more units of that subclass available.

 

[notlob.divad]

/4s have the most versatile seating layout - 2+2 with wide aisles and luggage racks.

But how would that effect the conversion process? Or make them more suitable to be converted.

 

[td97]

But how would that effect the conversion process? Or make them more suitable to be converted.

One of the proposed initial routes is Manchester Airport to Windermere

 

[Bletchleyite]

But how would that effect the conversion process? Or make them more suitable to be converted.

It doesn't, but it makes them more flexible and suitable for use in more contexts without interior conversion when compared to a Standard Class only unit or one with 3+2 seating.

 

[northwichcat]

It has been mentioned that LNWR are planning to acquire further class 319 trains to improve capacity on the south WCML routes before the Aventras arrive

How many more? I thought they'd already increased the number from 7 to 9.

 

[northwichcat]

One of the proposed initial routes is Manchester Airport to Windermere

769s on Windermere services is an interim solution only and they won't be used after the service officially becomes a Northern Connect service, the DfT Press Release mentioning 769s for Windermere also mentioned the 769s will be replaced by brand new trains by the end of 2019. Even if ones with 2+2 seating are selected, there's a requirement for air conditioning which might drain a bit too much power if they are on diesel mode!