Jamesrob637
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Has this week fared better for the 769s?
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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
- Thread starter northwichcat
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Nym
Established Member
On that topic, have the 769/5 units ventured out in anger yet?
About average, there's no logic to it but they have varied between 3 and 5 starting the day, but generally at least 1 retires hurt during the day. No sign as yet of 769421/52, 769431 has appeared ex-overhaul for a couple of days but not lately, whilst 450 which hadn't been seen for a bit re-appeared towards the end of this week but not today. 3 started the day today, 1 retired hurt, 2 still going. Spoke to a Wigan driver yesterday, he didn't think they were too bad, but mentioned contaminated fuel and second hand fuel tanks which is something I'd not heard before.
Try tapping the 8 unit numbers into real time trains..............that'll tell you!
You should rephrase to CAN (in practice) ha. As we know while the 769 should be perfectly capable... (so far) it hasn't been successful. The 323 on the Wigan Liverpool line wasn't even disabled either minus the no juice, it should've been able to move it but couldn't.
Maybe we will see it one day!
ExRes
Established Member
769949 reportedly the unit being hauled on todays 1350 5Q88 Crewe TMD (E) to Leicester LIP
P156KWJ
Established Member
Now officially 549, but yes, this is the unit for 5Q88.
DannyMich2018
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- 832
The 769s do seem to be improving, according to RTT 424, 431, 442, 456 and 458 are in service right now, think there was 5 yesterday too.
nightflyian
Member
I wouldn't quite say that yesterday.
431 failed at Stalybridge and just out Manchester Victoria during the commute home
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G31596/2025-04-30/detailed#allox_id=0
It seems the next service out of Manchester Oxford Rd also had issues inbound Ordsall Lane & also at Oxford Rd causing a further knock on effect and badly distrupted the Wigan Southport services and few others.
Realtime Trains | 2O79 1505 Southport to Manchester Oxford Road | 30/04/2025
Real-time train running information for 2O79 1505 departure from Southport to Manchester Oxford Road on 30/04/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Be interesting to know what the issues where heat related given they both eventually got going and continued on to Southport.
Just to clarify 431 didn't fail at Stalybridge, in fact it left in working order until stopped near Philips Park due to a freight train ahead. At this point it did begin to have issues but managed to limp into Victoria a few mins late, from where it was always due to go out of service.
nightflyian
Member
Cheers for the info. With it leaving Stalybridge 15minutes late, Northern Rail Journey Check led you to assume it had issues departing Stalybridge and then North of Manchester Victoria as you advise.
Soft Hands
Member
Realtime Trains | 2W24 1727 Manchester Oxford Road to Wigan Wallgate | 08/05/2025
Real-time train running information for 2W24 1727 departure from Manchester Oxford Road to Wigan Wallgate on 08/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
This was 769431 tonight. Loss of air reported just after changeover from 25kV to diesel power!
3 out today, same 3 as yesterday (769424/42/58). 769431 still 'retired hurt', 769434 at Brodies whilst 769450 has not strayed from AN for some time. 769448/56 ??
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Mon 12 May..............4 started the day. Down to 3 since mid-afternoon with 769431 noted as DEMC at Southport, and still there.
Tue 13 May..............5 started the day. Down to 4 since lunch when 769431 decided not to play at Wigan Wallgate.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Mon 12 May..............4 started the day. Down to 3 since mid-afternoon with 769431 noted as DEMC at Southport, and still there.
Tue 13 May..............5 started the day. Down to 4 since lunch when 769431 decided not to play at Wigan Wallgate.
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Robski
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Northern has leased 2 additional class 769 units until the end of the year.
www.find-tender.service.gov.uk
2x Additional Cl. 769s to be leased to support driver training - Find a Tender
www.find-tender.service.gov.uk
In the contract value figure is that the figure that Porterbrook are paying Northern to operate these units?Northern has leased 2 additional class 769 units until the end of the year.
2x Additional Cl. 769s to be leased to support driver training - Find a Tender
There doesn't seem to be any penalty for non-presentation of stock which for a 769 is daily (x) several.......
I was at Horwich Parkway this morning and the 'figures on the board' for the current period (whatever that is) for North Manchester (whatever that covers) was short forms of 17.7% which is nearly 1 in 5, 769's must be a fair proportion of this assuming the North Manchester covers Southport services.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Doesn't look like it, Northern are paying £0.45m to have 2 more trains for about half a year each.
Hopefully it means less 150/156 short forms.
Thinks if I was doing the 'chats' I'd be somewhat looking for a better deal!!!!
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Nothing has used the wires yet, and there aren't any power changeover signs
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When is the usage of them planned to happen? Thanks
Bertie the bus
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It looks like 769431 recovered today, managed to run 10 miles in passenger service, and then failed again.
Realtime Trains | 5J01 0444 Allerton Depot to Manchester Victoria | 21/05/2025
Real-time train running information for 5J01 0444 departure from Allerton Depot to Manchester Victoria on 21/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Realtime Trains | 2W01 0608 Manchester Victoria to Bolton | 21/05/2025
Real-time train running information for 2W01 0608 departure from Manchester Victoria to Bolton on 21/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
I wonder how many more years Northern will persevere with them before they admit defeat?It looks like 769431 recovered today, managed to run 10 miles in passenger service, and then failed again.
Realtime Trains | 5J01 0444 Allerton Depot to Manchester Victoria | 21/05/2025
Real-time train running information for 5J01 0444 departure from Allerton Depot to Manchester Victoria on 21/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.Realtime Trains | 2W01 0608 Manchester Victoria to Bolton | 21/05/2025
Real-time train running information for 2W01 0608 departure from Manchester Victoria to Bolton on 21/05/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
Is it up to Northern or is it a DfT decision? I guess DfT won’t let them get any replacements
17.7% shortforms on 'North Manchester' service group and nearly 5% cancellations. Both by far the worst on the figures I could see. Now assuming that North Manchester group includes the Stalybridge/Manchester Oxford Road to Southport services this is absolute proof that the 769's are not ongoing fit for purpose. Very few times there are 6 (as per diagrammed) presented for service and even fewer they manage even to lunch-time. Services are therefore not only cancelled but the DMU sets that are covering are then split to maintain a service. Now see that Porterbrook are supplying 2 extra 769's to cover for which Northern have apparently agreed at a cost of around £0.5m for 6 months whilst the original 8 sets are away for corrosion repairs/door fixing and a repaint.....having seen the reliability of 769431 since it came back its even worse!!!.....who on earth is negotiating these contracts as I wouldn't be paying this lot in washers.........................................?
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FrontSideBus
Member
What could they replace them with realistically?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
In the short term, nothing! That was noted in the tender.
The only stock avaliable any time soon that meet those requirements are either
1) The TfW 150s (currently going for scrap when they are due expensive repairs/exams)
2) The TfW 158s once the 197s start on the Cambrian line (which won't be avaliable for at least a year or so)
Long term Northern's new units will replace them (either with the 8*4 car battery units, or with the large bi-mode fleet)
FrontSideBus
Member
Would be nice to see more 158's working doubled up but going back to pure diesel sort of defeats the object of the 769!
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
The 769s defeated themselves.
It's always "one more fix" with the 769s, but in a couple of years those 158s will be up for the taking.
The_Train
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The money involved in this is eye-watering. I wish I had been old enough (and clever enough) to set up a ROSCO when the railways were privatised in the 90sNorthern has leased 2 additional class 769 units until the end of the year.
2x Additional Cl. 769s to be leased to support driver training - Find a Tender
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Assuming both units are made avaliable on the 1st of July (unlikely but I needed at least a date to work with), taking the amount of carriages avaliable on each day equals £316.85* per carriage per day.
Working out done in Excel (file attached if you want to have a play around).
* I used the figure including VAT, but I have no clue how VAT works for rail (I know it's not charged on tickets). Especially since it's the government paying the VAT, so it'll go straight back to the goverment, so not sure if it's worth considering as part of the cost.
Working out done in Excel (file attached if you want to have a play around).
* I used the figure including VAT, but I have no clue how VAT works for rail (I know it's not charged on tickets). Especially since it's the government paying the VAT, so it'll go straight back to the goverment, so not sure if it's worth considering as part of the cost.
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