Portsmouth Harbour-Cardiff Central GWR

[Ianmel1969]

Does anybody know why it is such a lottery on this line as to how many carriages your train will have. Yesterday I was on the 1023 out of Portsmouth Harbour, a two car. After Southampton Central you could not move for people. Today I notice the 0923 and 1023 are both two car again. So why is this line getting reduced carriages again?

 

[Harold Hill]

Absolutely infuriating and symptomatic of government disregard of the public. Sickening, actually

 

[fgwrich]

This is unfortunately what happens when TOCs are told to sweat the assets with nothing extra coming in the pipeline. The Turbo fleet is currently reduced through both unavailable units (eg broken awaiting repairs) and units away for “refreshment”, while the 150 and 158 fleets are also starting to suffer. Long and short, there’s nothing that can be done until someone frees up further DMUs elsewhere - or finds a magic wand, wedge of cash, or some way to bribe the DfT into either electrification or getting the 769s to work - which would have at least meant more Turbos for Bristol.

 

[Oli Bashford]

It is literal pot luck whether you get a Turbo or a 158 and what formation it is in - they are allocated but it changes short notice a lot of the time. GWR have put out a rolling stock tender (Project Churchward) but it is unlikely they will arrive for at least 5 years.

 

[Towers]

TfW 150s are about the best hope currently. Being compelled by the DfT to dispense with the Castle HSTs is unlikely to have made the diesel stock shortage any better of course, although that has more of an impact on the 80x fleet which is taking over their workload than it does Turbos and Sprinters.

 

[RailWonderer]

There are more TfW 158s going spare and I won’t be the first to say GWR should get them. It would solve a lot of problems, and they could eliminate Turbo running on the Cardiff Portsmouth.

To answer the OP I did this line a few times earlier this year and everything was at last 3 car and there were plenty of 5 car formations about (although the weather was bad each time so wasn’t as busy as the GWR IC services which you cannot even board at weekends if there are sports fixtures or engineering works or any previous cancellations) .

 

[387star]

There is an acute shortage of diesel stock made worse by Turbos going off for their bare minimum refresh

Furthermore even if you do get a seat it's a gamble if you will have a table leg room is woeful and some interiors are the shabbiest most neglected on the network punctuated by horrid announcements

 

[Mike Machin]

Living in Hampshire, the two routes I used to travel on were the Portsmouth to Cardiff and Cross-Country to the midlands and north west. It just became too stressful dealing with trying to find somewhere to stand in a two-car 158 or a four-car voyager. My electric car is quicker, quieter, more comfortable and better for the environment than the rattling, ancient smoky old trains.
I’ve now given up rail travel completely in the UK, except for the odd ride on the Watercress Line or Eastleigh Lakeside Railway!

 

[vicbury]

For whatever reason, this route never seems to be a priority. Quite frustrating having two car trains between Cardiff and Portsmouth when you see longer ones on shorter routes.

 

[Parallel]

The Turbos seem to be having some real issues recently, as an example, the last one I was on had a set of external doors taped out of use, and water trickling through the ceiling (I assume air conditioning coolant or moisture as it hadn’t been raining).

 

[Snow1964]

This is unfortunately what happens when TOCs are told to sweat the assets with nothing extra coming in the pipeline.

Strictly sweating the assets is using them more intensively, but still operating everything.

What GWR are doing is trying to operate with insufficient assets, so that they cannot even muster the diagrams at 'sweat level'.

Its pure greed to agree to a management contract that cannot achieve, it's putting commercial greed above ethics/morals where you could walk away rather that knowingly accept a plan that will fail in its current form.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It’s not about greed and arguably GWR is compliant with its contract. The lack of morality is with a DfT that pursues cost savings above passenger comfort and isn’t terribly fussed about the latter. It just cares about the money.

This week has seen the cl.158 fleet availability take a nose dive, as well as some operational issues which has upset the nightly fleet balances and in one case (Fratton on Monday), getting the units off depot. Fortunately 158798 is not that far away from finishing its C4 so that will help matters.

 

[FGW_DID]

Strictly sweating the assets is using them more intensively, but still operating everything.

What GWR are doing is trying to operate with insufficient assets, so that they cannot even muster the diagrams at 'sweat level'.

Absolute rubbish! There are not insufficient assets for diagrams, there are always more units then there are working diagrams, as I think I have stated on a number of occasions when this is claimed!

 

[Anonymous10]

There are more TfW 158s going spare and I won’t be the first to say GWR should get them. It would solve a lot of problems, and they could eliminate Turbo running on the Cardiff Portsmouth.

To answer the OP I did this line a few times earlier this year and everything was at last 3 car and there were plenty of 5 car formations about (although the weather was bad each time so wasn’t as busy as the GWR IC services which you cannot even board at weekends if there are sports fixtures or engineering works or any previous cancellations) .

Tfw 158s won't be available till 2025 iirc.

 

[adc82140]

Tfw 158s won't be available till 2025 iirc.

And will be 30 odd years old by that point. Any cascade anywhere would be no more than a stopgap.

 

[Snow1964]

Absolute rubbish! There are not insufficient assets for diagrams, there are always more units then there are working diagrams, as I think I have stated on a number of occasions when this is claimed!

We will have to disagree on this point.

I would define sufficient as enough, so that never have to have any short forms or cancellations due to lack of serviceable stock in right place.

Sufficient shouldn't mean can exclude all the days when there are no maintenance backlogs, trains away for refresh, or when unplanned failures occur.

No good saying something like have 55 trains for 50 diagrams, but 7 are long term unavailable. That should be have 55-7=48 for 50 diagrams, hardly sufficient

 

[FGW_DID]

So how many extra sets would you have?
2 units per diagram? 3 units?

I can only imagine the posts on here, if there were 50 odd units sat round on depot “just in case”!

Serviceability is the crux of the matter here, not the actual amount of units.
There are a huge variety of reasons a unit may be made unavailable for traffic.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Snow 1964 - the problem is simple. The DfT will not allow GWR to have “enough” units in your eyes or “enough” staff or materials to maintain those extra units.

You could give Bristol or Exeter all the units you want to give them but if they haven’t got the bits or the staff to maintain them, then the depots will just get full of unserviceable units.

Ideally, GWR should be working at 80-85% availability levels, by class, for its fleet of 15x & 16x. Reading did work at 90% when it had the Turbos but 2/3 of that fleet saw Reading each night. West is more spread out and what goes to an outstation at night, comes back out in the morning, short or not. A unit can also go for a fair while without seeing the Marsh so any unit issue can reverberate through the service for a fair few days.

You could dedicate units more to route and pull them into the Marsh more often but that needs more stock and staff to make it work. The money for that isn’t currently forthcoming but GWR are interested in the Welsh 158 units, when they finally get released, some to boost formations.

 

[The exile]

So how many extra sets would you have?
2 units per diagram? 3 units?

I can only imagine the posts on here, if there were 50 odd units sat round on depot “just in case”!

Serviceability is the crux of the matter here, not the actual amount of units.
There are a huge variety of reasons a unit may be made unavailable for traffic.

While you can never guarantee that there will be no cancellations due to stock unavailability (what happens when a unit fails 5 minutes before departure from Newquay, for example), I would define sufficient as meaning that at the start of each day there are enough units fully serviceable (includes lighting, heating, air con and toilets etc) and in the right place to cover every diagram with the allocated/ necessary number of coaches(including “hot spares”). Cancellation / short forming due to “more trains than usual requiring repairs” by definition cannot be valid on more than half of operating days.

 

[Snow1964]

You could dedicate units more to route and pull them into the Marsh more often but that needs more stock and staff to make it work. The money for that isn’t currently forthcoming but GWR are interested in the Welsh 158 units, when they finally get released, some to boost formations.

Yes unfortunately DfT rather stretches things, and its definition of sufficient or adequate, I think what they use is fair way below good or world class.

All rather a temporary, or short term view (but that seems to be true of majority of Government policy currently). Muddle through for another 15-18 months, then might (not will) get some extra 158s from Wales.

Then if DfT let GWR have the extra 158s (which will be 34 years old), can use them for few years, and in meantime not order any trains for when leases expire in 2028. Seems to me for time being project Churchward is a mythical aspiration, not something that is authorised.

What I haven't really heard explained is how Northern and Chiltern have been allowed to issue ITTs for new stock, but GWR hasn't. Unless the other two are using own cash to do the initial part so they are ready to go and in position to place an order when (and if) funds for new stock get authorised.

 

[Envoy]

Perhaps people from the DFT should get out of their London offices and take a ride on the 158’s during the current heatwave as invariably, the air conditioning is not working. TfW will be well shot of them.

 

[fgwrich]

Perhaps people from the DFT should get out of their London offices and take a ride on the 158’s during the current heatwave as invariably, the air conditioning is not working. TfW will be well shot of them.

Well, the Air Con was working quite nicely on my pair of 158s last night. Ironically, the air con was broken on my 159 home though. Turbos on the other hand…

(As 166214 showed at Sotton Central last night with nearly all windows open)

 

[Sun Chariot]

A polished Turbo?
Or, a polished turd....?

 

[Dan G]

Turbos on the other hand…

(As 166214 showed at Sotton Central last night with nearly all windows open)

Air conditioning doesn't work if windows are open. With turbos I often wonder if the a/c is actually broken or passengers who don't know better have been opening windows and letting hot air in.

 

[D6975]

Air conditioning doesn't work if windows are open. With turbos I often wonder if the a/c is actually broken or passengers who don't know better have been opening windows and letting hot air in.

I think that the hoppers on a 166 are locked and require the conductor to open them with a key, I don't think pax can do it on their own.

 

[Dan G]

I've never found them locked

(Not saying they can't be, just I've never encountered that)

 

[Towers]

The aircon on the late 80s/early 90s era BR DMUs is well known to be poor, it isn’t anything to do with passengers!

 

[lachlan]

Living in Hampshire, the two routes I used to travel on were the Portsmouth to Cardiff and Cross-Country to the midlands and north west. It just became too stressful dealing with trying to find somewhere to stand in a two-car 158 or a four-car voyager. My electric car is quicker, quieter, more comfortable and better for the environment than the rattling, ancient smoky old trains.
I’ve now given up rail travel completely in the UK, except for the odd ride on the Watercress Line or Eastleigh Lakeside Railway!

The train is always better for the environment than your car because it runs anyway regardless of if you’re on it or not! Not disputing the rest of your post

 

[Tom125]

And will be 30 odd years old by that point. Any cascade anywhere would be no more than a stopgap.

The great thing about TfW 158s is that they have been refurbished to a very high standard. The bad thing is the air-con seldom works. We will be sad to see them go up here on the Cambrian but you're absolutely right they are getting old!

 

[Clarence Yard]

What I haven't really heard explained is how Northern and Chiltern have been allowed to issue ITTs for new stock, but GWR hasn't. Unless the other two are using own cash to do the initial part so they are ready to go and in position to place an order when (and if) funds for new stock get authorised.

Because the DfT are behind in the process with the others (South Eastern as well the other two) in determining what they want GWR to go to the market for.

There is no “own cash” involved here - it’s the DfT wanting to go on fishing expeditions to see what they can get and what it will cost. There is no promise to actually order any new stock at the end of these individual procurement processes.