• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Portsmouth Harbour-Cardiff Central GWR

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,259
Location
West Wiltshire
Are you suggesting that ad-hoc empty stock movements should happen overnight when trains are in the wrong place?
Why not, they tend to only be in wrong place because of unplanned (ad-hoc) move, or a planned move that didn't happen.

The first one means already had the ad-hoc move, so just debating time of day, not principle. The second one is just a substitution for what didn't happen earlier.

Not talking about creating extra new moves.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,498
Despite trying to explain how stock swaps happen, I don’t think you have a clue how the railway works. The biggest problem that an on the day controller has is infrastructure failures. That means units will step up or step down through non-identically formed workings to prevent cancellations or maybe they just have to stay put until the fault out there is put right.

GWR units tend not to work on just one service group as part of their daily diagram and because they start and end up at a variety of locations, not just Bristol (which is very much in the minority for Bristol diagram starts), any disruption can wreck the unit balances.

Leaving aside trying to put units through the usual nighttime infrastructure engineering blockades, where are GWR going to magic up the train crew for all these ad hoc moves and the units themselves will probably need some maintenance downtime, which if they are blasting across the Bristol network at night they won’t be getting.

Then you have the problem that you had at Fratton a couple of nights ago. An early morning failure meant short formations on the Pompey-Cardiff. You are never going to have spare units stabled at all the outstations “just in case” one fails.

GWR (and the rest of the railway) works on the principle of what goes onto the outstations at night comes back out in the morning, barring any failures.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,259
Location
West Wiltshire
Despite trying to explain how stock swaps happen, I don’t think you have a clue how the railway works.
I know how it is supposed to work, and how a run down, stretched railway, where staff have been ground down over the years to where a low standard becomes the norm, works in practice.

The biggest problem that an on the day controller has is infrastructure failures. That means units will step up or step down through non-identically formed workings to prevent cancellations or maybe they just have to stay put until the fault out there is put right.
You can't have it both ways, if the infrastructure is weak, then need to increase fleet contingency to cover higher than normal failures

GWR units tend not to work on just one service group as part of their daily diagram and because they start and end up at a variety of locations, not just Bristol (which is very much in the minority for Bristol diagram starts), any disruption can wreck the unit balances.
Agreed, standard problem when operate mixed fleet, need spares of each type, which is more spares than if have one type of diesel unit

Leaving aside trying to put units through the usual nighttime infrastructure engineering blockades, where are GWR going to magic up the train crew for all these ad hoc moves and the units themselves will probably need some maintenance downtime, which if they are blasting across the Bristol network at night they won’t be getting.
Again insufficient units, so units get taken to wrong places by overstretched controllers who think of sorting immediate problem regardless of consequences for tomorrows allocation. Shouldn't need to run them at night, but the days unplanned changes are often unsuccessful at getting later shuffled again to unwind the swap get trains to correct finishing place.

Then you have the problem that you had at Fratton a couple of nights ago. An early morning failure meant short formations on the Pompey-Cardiff. You are never going to have spare units stabled at all the outstations “just in case” one fails.
True, not at all outstations, but it takes about 3 hours to take a train from Bristol depot to be ready for service at Portsmouth. Any outstation that far away with a series of trains departing before a replacement could arrive ought to be worthy of a spare, especially when we are dealing with a 31-35 year old aging diesel fleet that doesn't just fail once a year, but is prone to fail multiple mornings each month. These aren't rarely fail electric units.

GWR (and the rest of the railway) works on the principle of what goes onto the outstations at night comes back out in the morning, barring any failures.
Yes which it is imperative to try and get correct train there by end of day, even if it was borrowed or swapped around during the day.

I am actually on your side, I think GWR try and make best of a bad fleet (age, with difficult to get parts), and some staff are working miracles, getting something working, even if awash with short formations, but long term are not being realistic (under pressure from DfT), in accepting they can manage, rather than timetabling what they can achieve 99% of the time.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,355
I am actually on your side, I think GWR try and make best of a bad fleet (age, with difficult to get parts), and some staff are working miracles, getting something working, even if awash with short formations, but long term are not being realistic (under pressure from DfT), in accepting they can manage, rather than timetabling what they can achieve 99% of the time.
Welcome to the nationilsed-in-all-but-name railway where the Government specify the timetable, allocate the resources, pay the costs and receive the revenue.
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,498
Yes, there is no “acceptance” from any TOC because they are not now in a position to accept or reject. You are there to do what you are told and not make waves.

For that you get a management fee.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,259
Location
West Wiltshire
Welcome to the nationilsed-in-all-but-name railway where the Government specify the timetable, allocate the resources, pay the costs and receive the revenue.
Yes, there is no “acceptance” from any TOC because they are not now in a position to accept or reject. You are there to do what you are told and not make waves.

For that you get a management fee.

These answers sound more like a privatisation textbook explaining why a nationalised railway is a bad idea.

The big problem is the Management fee, incentivised to barely supply what is specified, and get paid for it with negligible risk. If you are asked to try and make best of heap of old crock, you do it and still get paid.

I think everyone gets frustrated, the lack of vision on how to move forward demoralises everyone (actually there are some old visions on the internet, but nothing current or forward looking, on where we progress as we enter 2024). There is the mythical project Churchward (basically kept secret from fare paying passengers, so officially appears as a fantasy idea, not worth talking about). To best of my knowledge there is nothing upto date from GWR which is published about what they would like to do, or even a how we will muddle on even though we know multiple short forms happen every day).

No one is expected to negotiate in public (even if CEO of Emirates Airlines does, which is much bigger than GWR). But all rather feels like the biggest timetable change for 5 years (GWRs words) in May 2023 was an unachievable idea that marked start of a slippery slope of everyday cancellations and short forms, which get get worse and worse each month.
 

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
3,950
But all rather feels like the biggest timetable change for 5 years (GWRs words) in May 2023 was an unachievable idea that marked start of a slippery slope of everyday cancellations and short forms, which get get worse and worse each month.

Does it get worse and worse each month? The short-former circuits on the Portsmouth route seems to have been fairly constant in your lists. Have you evidence to back up this statement?

You should also note it’s the seating short-form which is measured - a 4 car 158 has a similar number of seats to a 3 car 16x.
 

baza585

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2010
Messages
641
Does it get worse and worse each month? The short-former circuits on the Portsmouth route seems to have been fairly constant in your lists. Have you evidence to back up this statement?

You should also note it’s the seating short-form which is measured - a 4 car 158 has a similar number of seats to a 3 car 16x.
My sense as a regular commuter on this line is that it isn't getting any worse or any better, but that the expansion of local services around Bristol did see an understandable reduction in capacity on Pompey-Cardiff.

Is there a source of booked formations on this line anywhere? I have some flexibility over working hours....
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,259
Location
West Wiltshire
Does it get worse and worse each month? The short-former circuits on the Portsmouth route seems to have been fairly constant in your lists. Have you evidence to back up this statement?

You should also note it’s the seating short-form which is measured - a 4 car 158 has a similar number of seats to a 3 car 16x.
As a resident who uses line at times, and can see line from my house, it does vary day to day, and different times of day, possibly not getting worse overall, but 2car sets are much more common on Portsmouth-Cardiff than under the old timetable until May.

We are not talking about occasional short 2car trains, now happens many times every week, so no longer exceptional.

I suspect that it is still at 0% for managing a full days timetabled service without any short forms or cancellations in the 6 months since timetable changed, unless anyone can find a day where everything ran fully.

Today looks like 1F03, 1F12, 1F19, 1F28 are just a 2car 158.

1F12 has managed to lose 41 minutes so far, it will struggle to meet start time of return from Cardiff, unless they can reverse and clean it in a minute or two

 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,278
Location
West of Andover
1F12 has managed to lose 41 minutes so far, it will struggle to meet start time of return from Cardiff, unless they can reverse and clean it in a minute or two
I'm surprised they didn't use the usual in spinning it at Newport to allow the return leg to start on time, all be starting at Newport instead of Cardiff
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,297
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
As a resident who uses line at times, and can see line from my house, it does vary day to day, and different times of day, possibly not getting worse overall, but 2car sets are much more common on Portsmouth-Cardiff than under the old timetable until May.

We are not talking about occasional short 2car trains, now happens many times every week, so no longer exceptional.

I suspect that it is still at 0% for managing a full days timetabled service without any short forms or cancellations in the 6 months since timetable changed, unless anyone can find a day where everything ran fully.

Today looks like 1F03, 1F12, 1F19, 1F28 are just a 2car 158.

1F12 has managed to lose 41 minutes so far, it will struggle to meet start time of return from Cardiff, unless they can reverse and clean it in a minute or two

I now directly work next to the line and would agree with your observations. The numbers of 2 cars has increased considerably of late.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
3,670
All diesel units can do “local door”, surely, as that’s what the guard does to check before opening the rest. It’s selective door opening (ie 4 out of 5 carriages only) that only some units have.

Not if the "local door" is a cab door.

I'm fairly sure that the 165/6s used to have no ability to open a local saloon door and therefore couldn't be used at stations with very short platforms since having passengers pass through the rear cab isn't allowed.
 

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
3,950
Not if the "local door" is a cab door.

I'm fairly sure that the 165/6s used to have no ability to open a local saloon door and therefore couldn't be used at stations with very short platforms since having passengers pass through the rear cab isn't allowed.

They didn’t under the old Thames Valley driver open / ten bell dispatch but they were all modified for West work where at stations where local door operation is needed the driver doesn’t open doors but the guard opens a local saloon door.
 

Holly's 159

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2022
Messages
11
Location
Ludgershall
Currently on 1F19, 5 car 165/166, down 22 mins from Westbury with engine fault. Was very slow climbing out of Westbury, with power being put down then off again a lot, just crawling along really. Fitter on board. I think they have isolated the engine fault and we are back up to line speed again.
Bit of pot luck on this line IMO. Was very packed on the way up to Bath this morning with a 3 car 166. Just seen a 2 car 158 at Westbury going up that looked almost crush loaded
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,259
Location
West Wiltshire
Currently on 1F19, 5 car 165/166, down 22 mins from Westbury with engine fault. Was very slow climbing out of Westbury, with power being put down then off again a lot, just crawling along really. Fitter on board. I think they have isolated the engine fault and we are back up to line speed again.
Bit of pot luck on this line IMO. Was very packed on the way up to Bath this morning with a 3 car 166. Just seen a 2 car 158 at Westbury going up that looked almost crush loaded

You did well to get a 5car set (even if it doesn't work properly)

But as for crush loaded 2car, GWR doesn't help itself by stupid timetabling, eg the trains going north from my local station Bradford on Avon (using current time for simplicity)
15:14 Portsmouth - Cardiff
16:07 Weymouth - Bristol
16:17 Portsmouth - Cardiff

Who thinks it's good idea to have a service at 63 minute intervals, rather than hourly, and if you going to have two routes overlapping, what genius thought spacing them 53 and 10 minutes apart was sensible.

Never going to get even loadings if operate 53 minute gap, then few minutes gap.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,846
Who thinks it's good idea to have a service at 63 minute intervals, rather than hourly, and if you going to have two routes overlapping, what genius thought spacing them 53 and 10 minutes apart was sensible.
The times aren't only constrained by the departure times from Bradford-on-Avon, but by the various single lines, the timing of southbound services, the availability of platforms at Bristol etc.

Indeed, isn't it desirable to run the Weymouth train directly in front of the Portsmouth train to get the local train to clear the loads?

Looks like it crosses a southbound service at Yeovil Pen Mill, so to run earlier it would need to cross at Maiden Newton. Seems to come after a long break at Weymouth.
 
Last edited:

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,846
A gap in the market on this busy route for an open access operator to fill the gaps?
Unlikely. One of the first rules of open access is that a viable plan has to include running services to London.

Go-op haven't come up with a creditable plan yet.

https://go-op.coop/our-planned-services/
Making vital connections across Somerset and Wiltshire

Our proposal for 2024

This shows the route that we plan to operate from the end of 2024 onwards.

The core of the service between Taunton and Westbury is shown in purple. This will see six or more trains a day, improving the service levels in growing market towns.

They will also provide much needed connections for services to and from Yeovil, Salisbury and Exeter.

In addition, some services will be extended to Swindon; and we will also enhance travel up the Somerset coast with some extra trains between Taunton and Weston Super Mare.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,259
Location
West Wiltshire
Indeed, isn't it desirable to run the Weymouth train directly in front of the Portsmouth train to get the local train to clear the loads?
There would be, if the Weymouth train had more capacity than the following train.

Of the 3 trains I mentioned (which were nearest timings at time of discussion)
15:14 to Cardiff was just 2 car (and train before was also 2car)
16:07 to Bristol was 3 car
16:17 to Cardiff was 5 car

It might work in theory, but not with GWRs (effectively random) train lengths.
 

SJ21

Member
Joined
24 Nov 2017
Messages
67
Location
Exeter
Currently on 1F19, 5 car 165/166, down 22 mins from Westbury with engine fault. Was very slow climbing out of Westbury, with power being put down then off again a lot, just crawling along really. Fitter on board. I think they have isolated the engine fault and we are back up to line speed again
It is worth mentioning that Adhesion has been absolutely terrible today, was on a service that past you I believe at Oldfield Park and was the slowest crawl from Oldfield Park to Twerton and then on to Keynsham that I have ever been on, which could explain the power being put on and off a lot (WSP Wheelslip Protection)
 

Holly's 159

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2022
Messages
11
Location
Ludgershall
It is worth mentioning that Adhesion has been absolutely terrible today, was on a service that past you I believe at Oldfield Park and was the slowest crawl from Oldfield Park to Twerton and then on to Keynsham that I have ever been on, which could explain the power being put on and off a lot (WSP Wheelslip Protection)
I did wonder if it was this, the guard said in the PA, engine fault, but it had the hallmarks of wheel slip to me. Also service I took from Salisbury to Bath was taking it easy from Dilton Marsh up to Bradford.
Also 3 MPVs in Salisbury on lead duties this morning!
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,882
They must have single door opening though as I have boarded and alighted both types of unit at Avoncliff before which has a very short platform!
Yes, stations with such short platforms are local door only. Where there’s normal platforms though, we’d lock the rear coach or rear portion of the train out, so as to run normal 5 car formations etc, although we’d stop at the stop car marker relevant for the actual physical formation not taking in to account we’ve locked a coach out.
 

FGW_DID

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2011
Messages
2,730
Location
81E
It might work in theory, but not with GWRs (effectively random) train lengths.
You’ve obviously visited the Depot control room and seen our essential bit of kit - much fun is had on nights!

The Snow1964 random carriage generator!

Why look at the traction diagrams when you can just spin the wheel! :rolleyes:

IMG_3508.jpeg
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
2,726
Location
Somerset
Indeed, isn't it desirable to run the Weymouth train directly in front of the Portsmouth train to get the local train to clear the loads?
There’s a limit to how long you can run a stopper “directly” in front of a faster service without holding the latter up! Even without any other considerations the stopper has to be far enough ahead of the Portsmouth at Bradford to allow for 4 additional stops.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,259
Location
West Wiltshire
You’ve obviously visited the Depot control room and seen our essential bit of kit - much fun is had on nights!

The Snow1964 random carriage generator!

Why look at the traction diagrams when you can just spin the wheel! :rolleyes:
I know their are diagrams, my point is the same train will regularly be a different length, or swap between 158, 165, 166 different days of the week, and also be different on same day of the week, a week later

Some of the worse trains for randomness are the ones starting in Bristol area in the afternoon, not so much an organised run out as use whichever is available.
 

vicbury

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2012
Messages
911
Location
Bristol
Absolutely horrible on the 0752 Portsmouth Harbour from Severn Tunnel Junction yesterday morning, with the service being 3 cars instead of 5, and the service before being cancelled. As bad, if not worse, than it gets on the Central Line, with people left behind at Severn Tunnel Junction and Filton Abbey Wood.

Looks like the same thing happened this morning too, which would have been worse still with Wednesdays being more popular for commuting. Maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel with the refurbishments coming to an end?
 

Jim

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2005
Messages
3,400
Location
Wick
Absolutely horrible on the 0752 Portsmouth Harbour from Severn Tunnel Junction yesterday morning, with the service being 3 cars instead of 5, and the service before being cancelled. As bad, if not worse, than it gets on the Central Line, with people left behind at Severn Tunnel Junction and Filton Abbey Wood.

Looks like the same thing happened this morning too, which would have been worse still with Wednesdays being more popular for commuting. Maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel with the refurbishments coming to an end?
Same again today.

1L07 has been arranged to call at Severn Tunnel Junction I notice though.
 

vicbury

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2012
Messages
911
Location
Bristol
Same again today.

1L07 has been arranged to call at Severn Tunnel Junction I notice though.
Good luck to anyone trying to board! Thursdays are by far the busiest. Fortunately I'm heading in the other direction to Swansea today. I wonder what's happened to the 0721 to Bristol Temple Meads all week?
 

Jim

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2005
Messages
3,400
Location
Wick
Good luck to anyone trying to board! Thursdays are by far the busiest. Fortunately I'm heading in the other direction to Swansea today. I wonder what's happened to the 0721 to Bristol Temple Meads all week?
Shortage of sets I would guess and less HST availability to cover it up?
 

Top