Possible Chat Moss line improvements?

[darylyates17]

Lea Green appears to be having its extensions being built as we speak as well.

 

[8A Rail]

Lea Green appears to be having its extensions being built as we speak as well.

Are you referring to the two platforms being extended? If so that has only just been in the last 2/3 weeks then? (I am aware of the other work going on, re new station building, two tier car park etc).

 

[darylyates17]

Are you referring to the two platforms being extended? If so that has only just been in the last 2/3 weeks then? (I am aware of the other work going on, re new station building, two tier car park etc).

Yep im aware it's only just started noticed the gate like fence a few weeks ago just after i noticed them at NLW, LEG is a regular since it's one of my local stations.

 

[TheGrew]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/newton-le-willows-platform-extension.251096

I was just browsing Facebook and had this post suggested to me by one of the local councilors.

Councillor Seve Gomwz-Aspron
Newton Station Update
The platform extension work is well underway and will be completed in the coming months.
As if on cue, but totally unrehursed, a TPE train pulled in whilst I was there, showing how the new length can accomidate a full 6 carriage train, upto 140m.
This will allow full access (including disabled access) to the entire train.
It's good news!
Also; we are still lobbying for direct services to Wigan, that could come from WBQ-Earlestown-NLW-Wigan-onwards for a commuter service.
And we are also lobbying for a potential London service to stop at NLW even if only morning and evening as a commuter service, which could come down the West Coast, via NLW and Earlestown and onwards in partnership with Newton West Labour Councillors.
The new services take a lot of time, but don't ask don't get!
#LoveNLW

I have to admit I have long thought a WBQ-Earlstown-NLW-Wigan service would make a great deal of sense.

At the moment there is only something like two trains a day north to Wigan and unusual times.

If Golborne staiton was reopened as well and maybe even an Ashton/Ince Parkway station near the Lilly Lane overbridge I think you would have a very compelling commuter service.

 

[urbophile]

Meanwhile the service to the regional centre, namely Liverpool, remains a pathetic 1tph for practical purposes (one slow, one fast, a few minutes apart). High time for Merseyrail to take over the City line.

 

[darylyates17]

Given that 6 car Northern services may happen on Chat Moss in future what other stations will need extending as 323s dont have ASDO?

 

[AMD]

Given that 6 car Northern services may happen on Chat Moss in future what other stations will need extending as 323s dont have ASDO?

To accomodate 6 car 323s? Wavertree TP, Broad Green, Roby, Huyton (Up), Whiston, Lea Green, St Helens Junction, Earlestown (Down), Patricroft, Eccles (ie virtually everywhere). It may not happen as 323s can't be modified for ECTS and Warrington is expected to be the first box to change in the NW, so would it be worth it for a few years?

 

[8A Rail]

Meanwhile the service to the regional centre, namely Liverpool, remains a pathetic 1tph for practical purposes (one slow, one fast, a few minutes apart). High time for Merseyrail to take over the City line.

A definite NO I'm afraid! I do not want or anything remotely like Class 777's on the line what so ever.

In the meantime, here is an image of the platform work extensions at Lea Green Station, taken over a week ago.

 

[urbophile]

A definite NO I'm afraid! I do not want or anything remotely like Class 777's on the line what so ever.

In the meantime, here is an image of the platform work extensions at Lea Green Station, taken over a week ago. View attachment 141714

That is a train enthusiast speaking rather than a Merseyside commuter, I imagine. Most people would be happier with a frequent metro service rather than be at the mercy of arbitrary stops by long-distance operators. Anyway there is no reason why Merseyrail should not operate the City Line with different rolling stock.

 

[mcnw35282]

It’s a shame no-one seems to give a flying fig about passengers on the chat miss route any more. Perhaps northern being ‘renationalised’ wasn’t such a great idea after all…

To accomodate 6 car 323s? Wavertree TP, Broad Green, Roby, Huyton (Up), Whiston, Lea Green, St Helens Junction, Earlestown (Down), Patricroft, Eccles (ie virtually everywhere). It may not happen as 323s can't be modified for ECTS and Warrington is expected to be the first box to change in the NW, so would it be worth it for a few years?

Common sense would say keep hold of a few 331/0 and run 6 car trains on the hourly Liverpool and Manchester Airport services.

But that’s common sense. Much easier to trade them for 4 car 331/1’s to increase the seatage on the half-hourly Liverpool to Wigan service! I dunno bout anyone else, but I just love not being able to breathe when on the train to Liverpool.

 

[darylyates17]

It’s a shame no-one seems to give a flying fig about passengers on the chat miss route any more. Perhaps northern being ‘renationalised’ wasn’t such a great idea after all…

Only getting worse with TPE only having an hourly service from December (same as the COVID timetable) an extra stopper is needed for sure with 4 coaches at least, prehaps Chat Moss isnt doing as well nowadays.

It’s a shame no-one seems to give a flying fig about passengers on the chat miss route any more. Perhaps northern being ‘renationalised’ wasn’t such a great idea after all…


Common sense would say keep hold of a few 331/0 and run 6 car trains on the hourly Liverpool and Manchester Airport services.

But that’s common sense. Much easier to trade them for 4 car 331/1’s to increase the seatage on the half-hourly Liverpool to Wigan service! I dunno bout anyone else, but I just love not being able to breathe when on the train to Liverpool.

Bigger trains are needed and perhaps an extra service per hour if its not possible.

 

[DJH1971]

I don't use St Helens Junction anymore...even though it is literally 5 mins walk from my front door.

Rather use my car and drive 10 mins to St Helens Central. Its a complete waste of petrol, but at least I know I'll be guaranteed a seat AND that the train won't be crush-loaded during my journey.

I'm having to do the same, as only on train an hour to Liverpool from St Helens Junction whilst there are 3 to 4 trains an hour from St Helens Central. Just pure madness.

 

[Greybeard33]

Northern has promised some Chat Moss services will be 4-car from the December timetable change:

May 2025 Timetable Changes

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

• Liverpool - Wigan: Some trains will run as 3 carriages instead of 4.
• Liverpool – Newton-le-Willows - Manchester Airport: Some trains will see an increase in capacity where demand is higher, running as 4 carriages instead of 3.

 

[mcnw35282]

“Some”

Meanwhile, both of the half-hourly wigan trains and the hourly Blackpool semi fast will get 331/1s all day.

Pish-ups and breweries spring instantly to mind…

 

[8A Rail]

That is a train enthusiast speaking rather than a Merseyside commuter, I imagine. Most people would be happier with a frequent metro service rather than be at the mercy of arbitrary stops by long-distance operators. Anyway there is no reason why Merseyrail should not operate the City Line with different rolling stock.

So you jumped to a conclusion that I do not use the trains in Merseyside! It may seem strange to you I actually do when the it is convenient and the need arises, so i know enough about travelling on the different trains with different operators over the years (since 1982 including too and from place of employment). I think there are too many problems / issues to overcome for Merseytravel / rail with at least connectivety with Manchester, Wigan, Preston etc and certainly the likes of Class 777's or similar are not ideal for those routes either. The likes of Greater Manchester and Lancashire, would not be keen for Merseyrail branded services arriving at their doorstep and also doubt they would contribute in funding them either.

The main issue and I have stated it before, is the reintroduction of the half hourly service on the L&M line between Liverpool and Manchester as the present one hour service especially serving Whiston, Rainhill, (Lea Green), St Helens Junction and Earlestown is totally inadequate regardless whether it is Class 323 or 331's (and that includes 4 car 331/1's in due course). Most of the existing hourly trains are usually well patronised sometimes over crowded but the frequency alone puts people off from using the train service in the first place. If there was a half hour service (like it was in the past), I and others certainly would use the train a lot more than I do at the present moment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A definite NO I'm afraid! I do not want or anything remotely like Class 777's on the line what so ever.

In the meantime, here is an image of the platform work extensions at Lea Green Station, taken over a week ago. View attachment 141714

With respect, you not liking the would-be rolling stock certainly does not make a project a “definite NO.”

 

[185]

It's very easy to dismiss an idea about extending Merseyrail onto other Merseyside routes, however when you see how diabolical the recent Chat Moss service has been, I think residents would be happy if the Newton Heath Bin Train was operating it compared to both the current operators. There was (albeit pie-in-the-sky) talk about extending Merseyrail to Newton le Willows and St Helens Central from Edge Hill via the Crown St tunnel & a short spur into the south of Liverpool Central - not as the sole operator, but as a complementary operator to pick up the slack. I can't stand 777s, they are horrid, but even they could put Northern & TPE to shame just by actually turning up.

But I agree, it's a sorry state of affairs, and perhaps the local PTE who used to be great but now hide in a cupboard could insist on a second service along the moss.

My opinion, TPE should not be stopping anywhere, it's a long distance, headline time city-to-city service being slowed down with stops that don't justify it calling - very, very few Lea Green & NLW users aren't going to Liverpool or Manchester. Just because a railway manager lives there...

 

[8A Rail]

With respect, you not liking the would-be rolling stock certainly does not make a project a “definite NO.”

Did I actually say i did not like them (Class 777's)? I don't think I did, just your assumption!

Just to clarify, I have been on them, they are fine for what they are for travelling a handful of short stops but they are NOT suitable for travelling between Liverpool and Manchester, Wigan and Preston (Blackpool). May be if you do live in South Wales (but wont make that assumption that you do), then may be your local operators would like to have a fleet of Class 777's? Mmmmm probably not!

 

[urbophile]

So you jumped to a conclusion that I do not use the trains in Merseyside! It may seem strange to you I actually do when the it is convenient and the need arises, so i know enough about travelling on the different trains with different operators over the years (since 1982 including too and from place of employment). I think there are too many problems / issues to overcome for Merseytravel / rail with at least connectivety with Manchester, Wigan, Preston etc and certainly the likes of Class 777's or similar are not ideal for those routes either. The likes of Greater Manchester and Lancashire, would not be keen for Merseyrail branded services arriving at their doorstep and also doubt they would contribute in funding them either.

The main issue and I have stated it before, is the reintroduction of the half hourly service on the L&M line between Liverpool and Manchester as the present one hour service especially serving Whiston, Rainhill, (Lea Green), St Helens Junction and Earlestown is totally inadequate regardless whether it is Class 323 or 331's (and that includes 4 car 331/1's in due course). Most of the existing hourly trains are usually well patronised sometimes over crowded but the frequency alone puts people off from using the train service in the first place. If there was a half hour service (like it was in the past), I and others certainly would use the train a lot more than I do at the present moment.

Sorry for jumping to the wrong conclusion. However I think you similarly mistakenly assumed that Merseyrail taking over the service would mean their using the class 777s. I agree if trains were going to continue to Manchester more appropriate rolling stock should be used. However, Newton le Willows is in Merseyside (albeit a distant outpost) so it should have a better service than it does, ideally a 15 minute service like the rest of the network. I'm no expert on these matters but I wouldn't have thought that the track capacity is insufficient.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Did I actually say i did not like them (Class 777's)? I don't think I did, just your assumption!

Just to clarify, I have been on them, they are fine for what they are for travelling a handful of short stops but they are NOT suitable for travelling between Liverpool and Manchester, Wigan and Preston (Blackpool). May be if you do live in South Wales (but wont make that assumption that you do), then may be your local operators would like to have a fleet of Class 777's?

Regardless of what your opinion is, your thoughts as an individual do not make it a definite no, unless you happen to be at the DfT.

Mmmmm probably not!

As for this part, the Mmmmm is just meaningless and annoying to be honest.

 

[8A Rail]

Regardless of what your opinion is, your thoughts as an individual do not make it a definite no, unless you happen to be at the DfT.


As for this part, the Mmmmm is just meaningless and annoying to be honest.

In the same way you have thoughts and opinions, I am entitled to have them. As for your latter thought, I am pleased it does!

 

[WibbleWobble]

My opinion, TPE should not be stopping anywhere, it's a long distance, headline time city-to-city service being slowed down with stops that don't justify it calling - very, very few Lea Green & NLW users aren't going to Liverpool or Manchester. Just because a railway manager lives there...

It's a regional express service, not an intercity route. Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows don't just serve those places, they act as feeders for other towns such as St Helens, Leigh and even to a degree Wigan and Warrington (or certainly parts of).

By your logic, then stations such as Stalybridge, Marsden, Selby, even Huddersfield shouldn't be served.

 

[urbophile]

It's a regional express service, not an intercity route. Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows don't just serve those places, they act as feeders for other towns such as St Helens, Leigh and even to a degree Wigan and Warrington (or certainly parts of).

By your logic, then stations such as Stalybridge, Marsden, Selby, even Huddersfield shouldn't be served.

However its branded, the TPE between Liverpool and Newcastle is on any reckoning an intercity route which wouldn't be serving places like N-le-W if the latter had a half decent regional/commuter service.

 

[Manutd1999]

In an ideal world, there would be something like 8ph out of Liverpool:

2ph TPE fast
2ph semi-fast - one to Manchester, one to Blackpool via Wigan/Preston
2ph commuter to Wigan
2ph commuter to Warrington BQ

The commuter trains could be handed over to Merseyrail. At the Manchester end, Newton-Le-Willows and Eccles/Patricroft would be also be served by the Chester service(s), giving them 2ph to Manchester.

This is more-or-less deliverable with the current infrastructure, but I don't see it happening any time soon......

 

[The Planner]

In an ideal world, there would be something like 8ph out of Liverpool:

2ph TPE fast
2ph semi-fast - one to Manchester, one to Blackpool via Wigan/Preston
2ph commuter to Wigan
2ph commuter to Warrington BQ

The commuter trains could be handed over to Merseyrail. At the Manchester end, Newton-Le-Willows and Eccles/Patricroft would be also be served by the Chester service(s), giving them 2ph to Manchester.

This is more-or-less deliverable with the current infrastructure, but I don't see it happening any time soon......

Not with freight it isnt, and even without it would be a performance nightmare as everything would have to be bang on everytime at Roby.

 

[danbarjon]

Lea Green appears to be having its extensions being built as we speak as well.

Lea Green platform extensions are due to be completed at the end of November.

 

[yorksrob]

Surely the whole point of electrifying this route was to enable crowd-busting rakes of ex-Thameslink stock between the two cities !

Has our great and munificent Government been scrapping too much rolling stock again ?

 

[Tayway]

Not with freight it isnt, and even without it would be a performance nightmare as everything would have to be bang on everytime at Roby.

With respect, the timetable pre-2018 was

1tph Newcastle fast
1tph Manchester Airport semi-fast
1tph Blackpool North semi-fast
2tph Manchester Victoria/Warrington BQ stopping
2tph Wigan North Western stopping

At the eastern end, there was 1tph Manchester to Llandudno and 1tph Manchester to Blackpool.

This is only 1tph less than proposed by @Manutd1999, and was operated for a while with only three through lines at Huyton due to the wrangling with BT over planning permission for the new Platform 4.

 

[The Planner]

With respect, the timetable pre-2018 was

1tph Newcastle fast
1tph Manchester Airport semi-fast
1tph Blackpool North semi-fast
2tph Manchester Victoria/Warrington BQ stopping
2tph Wigan North Western stopping

At the eastern end, there was 1tph Manchester to Llandudno and 1tph Manchester to Blackpool.

This is only 1tph less than proposed by @Manutd1999, and was operated for a while with only three through lines at Huyton due to the wrangling with BT over planning permission for the new Platform 4.

I fail to see how that operated robustly unless the stoppers at the Western end werent all station.

 

[8A Rail]

I fail to see how that operated robustly unless the stoppers at the Western end werent all station.

Actually it did and the stoppers were all station too at the Western End. Add to that, the occasional freight too. The overall daily serviced worked and I reckon the majority of people would like to have that service back again (as below) as it covered all bases.

With respect, the timetable pre-2018 was

1tph Newcastle fast
1tph Manchester Airport semi-fast
1tph Blackpool North semi-fast
2tph Manchester Victoria/Warrington BQ stopping
2tph Wigan North Western stopping

At the eastern end, there was 1tph Manchester to Llandudno and 1tph Manchester to Blackpool.

This is only 1tph less than proposed by @Manutd1999, and was operated for a while with only three through lines at Huyton due to the wrangling with BT over planning permission for the new Platform 4.

Minor point, I think you are referring to the placing of the Up Slow line near to BT premises rather than anything to do with Platform Four as that was in place and rails were already laid there too while 'discussions' were ongoing.