This is true, how silly of me to forget!
It would need to be £2.40 off a single or £4.80 off a return and there's no way tickets valid to cross London are going to be reduced by this amount.
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Possible end to paper tickets in South East?
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If I was working for DafT and had any idea about how railways generate revenue I'd be looking extremely closely at the value of peak and off peak journeys that include cross-London transfers.
Killing off the cross-London bit would automatically kill off many long-distance Advances, and, given the fare structure in the SE is hugely geared to generating revenue from Monday to Friday commuters, I'd hazard a guess that such a move would be revenue negative as many long distance travellers would take fright at the complexity, not to mention having to look at three prices, and elect to drive or fly instead.
Through ticketing via London happens for a reason - it generates revenue. One ticket from start to end. Job done. Easy. Anyone who thinks replacing one ticket with three tickets would be a great idea needs to give their head a wobble.
This does seem to be the only sensible option - and really it only needs to be at the relatively few LUL stations that have an interchange with National Rail. I know that tickets are valid for people to get off the tube half way, but that's the sort of flows that can be managed by a manual gate check, or even a rule change that says that you have to make the cross London transfer from NR station to NR station, or pay the additional fare. Surely adding bar code readers to gates isn't that expensive, and relations between DfT and TfL aren't that bad that the cost couldn't be managed somehow.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The concern is it slows down progress through the gatelines - maybe a good time to invest in improved scanning tech?
For relatively small numbers of people though, surely it isn't that much of an impact. Especially when combined with a general shift to contactless technology, so you are only talking about long-distance cross-London passengers, not journeys like Bletchley to Canterbury as suggested above, as they would be using contactless the same as everyone else.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, true. That just leaves outboundary Day Travelcards, but it probably wouldn't be outside the realms of sense to issue those on ITSO only.
WestRiding
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So if I was to turn up at Folkestone, and purchase a 'ticket' to Sheffield, how would my ticket be served to me?
I'd have thought the obvious solution to the London/TfL problem is having specially signposted optical gates in each station: for "National Rail ticket holders", so any slow queues are limited to these gates only. Also the DfT wouldn't need to pay for optical readers for every TfL gate.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
It just needs them to be enabled in the industry systems, something we've already done with ours.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm not sure why not including the transfer at all is all that much of an issue, to be honest. Not everyone does it by Tube anyway, plenty use buses or taxis, which aren't included, or walk. So the simplest way is just to remove the Tube validity but keep it as a through ticket. As has been said, for a shorter cross London trip contactless could be used which might include it, and for a longer distance trip a couple of quid is noise level, also noting that kids under 11 are free anyway.
You could perhaps set the industry's systems to issue any ticket on ITSO, and if issued that way you'd get the validity. So those it bothered could get an ITSO card, and the rest of us just wouldn't care. Even now I'd rather e-ticket flows were enabled via London even if I lost that validity.
I suspect a lot of people split Advances across London anyway as by doing so you often get more value. This is limiting the issue even further to only rather expensive walk-up tickets. The cheapest Birmingham to Dover single, say, is £62; is £2.40 on top of that really an issue? The next fares increase round might put it up more than that anyway.
To me, the easiest way to find out of people actually do care is just to enable all the missing e-ticket flows* and clearly state on e-tickets that they have no validity on London Underground, and see what people buy. I doubt it would be anywhere near as big an issue as is being suggested. I think plenty will take the £2.40 hit not to have to faff about collecting tickets at the origin station and just use contactless to cross London. It's a bit like the Trainline fee - people on here hate it, but enough people very happily pay it.
* Easiest way to do that might be to run a batch job creating route LONDON NOT UND / ANY P NOT UND tickets for any that are shown as +LONDON / +ANY PERMITTED priced at 10p less than the one including Tube validity, and enable those for e-ticketing.
You could perhaps set the industry's systems to issue any ticket on ITSO, and if issued that way you'd get the validity. So those it bothered could get an ITSO card, and the rest of us just wouldn't care. Even now I'd rather e-ticket flows were enabled via London even if I lost that validity.
I suspect a lot of people split Advances across London anyway as by doing so you often get more value. This is limiting the issue even further to only rather expensive walk-up tickets. The cheapest Birmingham to Dover single, say, is £62; is £2.40 on top of that really an issue? The next fares increase round might put it up more than that anyway.
To me, the easiest way to find out of people actually do care is just to enable all the missing e-ticket flows* and clearly state on e-tickets that they have no validity on London Underground, and see what people buy. I doubt it would be anywhere near as big an issue as is being suggested. I think plenty will take the £2.40 hit not to have to faff about collecting tickets at the origin station and just use contactless to cross London. It's a bit like the Trainline fee - people on here hate it, but enough people very happily pay it.
* Easiest way to do that might be to run a batch job creating route LONDON NOT UND / ANY P NOT UND tickets for any that are shown as +LONDON / +ANY PERMITTED priced at 10p less than the one including Tube validity, and enable those for e-ticketing.
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Haywain
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A relatively small number of people can have a significant impact on a very large number of people, and that is TfL's problem. Some of their stations are (or, at least, were) effectively at capacity during peak hours and that capacity is partly governed by the speed at which people flow through barrier lines.
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If the journey requires the use of the tube to make the journey, how can it be a through ticket if it doesn't have all the necessary validity to actually make the journey?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are absolutely loads of examples of through National Rail tickets where one must walk, or pay one's own fare, between two stations in a town. For example, Ormskirk to Manchester via the Burscoughs*, or anything via Bradford.
Pre Ordsall Manchester was another example, you could technically go out and back in via Salford Crescent but I bet single figures of people did that per day as it takes longer than walking. The "free bus" is irrelevant as it's free to all, not just rail users, so isn't part of the through ticket.
* It's cheaper to split this, but you may well want to return a different way.
That doesn't change the fact that if the ticket does not include all the necessary validity to actually make a through journey, then it is by definition not a through ticket for that journey.
Basically what you are proposing is one ticket for two unconnected journeys to be sold under the pretense that it is a through ticket, but doesn't actually allow the through journey to be made using that ticket. Apart form being a contractual and legal minefield, that is hardly user-friendly.
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Isn't that the way it works in Paris though?
...and Manchester, and Glasgow
Class800
Established Member
A totally different legal system
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's a legal technicality which is neither here nor there. If it was of significance, the many existing examples of such tickets requiring a walk between stations (or payment of your own fare on a non-NR operation) would also not be through tickets, and they are exactly that.
Do you think it is illegal for the railway to offer a ticket from Euxton Balshaw Lane to Gathurst, which requires a walk across Wigan? (Don't suggest silly stuff like (edited) Gathurst-Southport-Liverpool-Euxton, as literally nobody will do that as it will take ages compared to the walk and no way would you get away with it given the fare).
Irrelevant.
There's a free bus for rail ticket holders in Glasgow and the Ordsall Chord in Manchester, but I bet most people just walk in both cases, or perhaps use contactless on the tram.
Similarly, using the Liverpool Loop to change between the Northern Line and Lime St in Liverpool is not really a thing unless it's absolutely tipping it down or they are infirm. People just walk*, it's quicker, you can only get close if you use the lifts at both ends.
* Before anyone calls discrimination, wheeling your wheelchair and riding your bicycle are available too.
Class800
Established Member
The fact that France has a totally different legal system is not irrelevant to what can operate there and what can operate here. If you want to dismiss people's comments as irrelevant, go and try to follow British laws in France and let us know how you get on.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The difference in general legal systems between France and the UK is irrelevant to this discussion because it is legal to do this in both countries. I and others have given lots of examples of through NR tickets which require moving between two stations at your own cost (or on foot) to make the journey; do you consider these all illegal, too?
It would be illegal to sell this ticket stating that transfers were included when they weren't, but you wouldn't do that, you'd clearly state they were at your own cost.
Another example - a journey via London at times of day when the Tube is not operating. You don't get a free taxi, nor is a night bus included.
Yes, and there would still be Thameslink, the West London Line, and other National Rail connections, maybe including Crossrail, in London.
The Ordsall Curve has one train an hour so could result in a long wait.
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What's the longest distance of transfer that you have to make that is not included in a so-called "through" ticket outside London at the moment? How does it compare with, say, Liverpool Street to Paddington which Google says is 4.5 miles (on foot) or 5.5 miles (by road)?
The only non-London transfer I think I've made in the middle of a train journey was Manchester Oxford Road to Piccadilly, which is around half a mile, so on that experience alone I don't think it's reasonable to say that cross-London and cross-other-city transfers are the same thing.
The only non-London transfer I think I've made in the middle of a train journey was Manchester Oxford Road to Piccadilly, which is around half a mile, so on that experience alone I don't think it's reasonable to say that cross-London and cross-other-city transfers are the same thing.
johncrossley
Established Member
Strange example, given there is a very frequent train service between these two stations.
Class800
Established Member
I will leave this discussion now - but it's not courteous to dismiss things and people as irrelevant. I don't think it is irrelevant, we can disagree.
How is it "neither here nor there" that what you are proposing to sell as a through ticket for a journey cannot actually be used to make that through journey?
I just checked the itinerary for that journey, and the interchange is between Wigan North Western and Wigan Wallgate, which Google Maps indicates is a mere two minute walk. This is less than the distance between platforms in a lot of stations, and does not require any further payment (it is a walk!). This is in no way comparable to the requiring an additional payment for a journey right across London.
As I said, I've only done it once. It was a long time ago, and I don't know Manchester well. Maybe I mis-remember? Is there a more common pair of stations to transfer between in Manchester?
Staring at a map of Manchester suggests maybe it could have been Victoria to Piccadilly? That's 1 mile, which I admit is longer than the original half-mile distance I quoted, but I still don't think it's anywhere near long enough to be comparable to some of the distances involved in cross-London transfers.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You can be sold a ticket for a journey across London at times of day when the Tube is not running (e.g. one involving the 0134 departure from Euston). Such a ticket is in that exact position. The planners state that the Tube is not running at that time and thus the transfer is your own responsibility.
For a walk-up you could argue that you could use it at a time when the Tube was running, but I'm certain you could get an Advance (e.g. from somewhere like Bristol on GWR to Milton Keynes Central) for that journey which is not valid for use at another time.
Why would doing that all the time be legally different?
Edit: here you go. Is this not a legally issued through ticket?
At what distance would you consider it reasonable, and at what distance not?
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Selling tickets at a time that the journey cannot actually be made is a different issue to designing a system to sell a ticket a ticket under the pretense that it is for a journey which can never actually be make using it.
Why would is need to be different anyway? Neither thing should be happening.
You missed the point that it is only a short walk, similar to the walk between platforms within medium-sized station, not an additional journey requiring payment of an additional fare.
johncrossley
Established Member
Ah OK, Victoria to Piccadilly seems much more likely. There is now a direct train between the two but I doubt many people use it unless they are already on that train as it is quicker to walk or get the tram. Until the tram line opened there was a frequent Centreline bus which used to charge but became free at some point. The point being that is was considered 'OK' to charge for that bus. When the tram opened, around 1990, the bus route was changed so that only the tram went to Victoria. From that point you had to pay to cross between Victoria and Piccadilly, unless your ticket had 'Metrolink' as the route.
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