Possible future 158 cascade

[TheWalrus]

Hi everyone,

I have haad an idea here. If East Midlands ordered 25 new 3-car 172s (same as the ones LM are supposed to be getting), these could replace all of the routes they use 158s for, therefore returning then to the good old quality of the turbostars before they split Central Trains. This move would deal with overcrowding on these routes, and enable 25 158s to be cascaded to other operators - Northern, FGW and Arriva - who need additional stock.

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[GNERman]

but how likely is it that this is going to happen? this is a good plan, all would benefit but how dire is the situation that EMT is in?

 

[royaloak]

So EMT will pay the increased leasing charges for what reason exactly?

And when will people realise that ALL rolling stock procurement is done by the DaFT and the franchises have very little say in any of it!

 

[GNERman]

So EMT will pay the increased leasing charges for what reason exactly?

Better, quicker, more fuel efficient, more reliable, lighter trains. Nuff said.

And when will people realise that ALL rolling stock procurement is done by the DaFT and the franchises have very little say in any of it!

The EMT would influence the DafT to order them for their franchise.

 

[Muttley]

Better, quicker, more fuel efficient, more reliable, lighter trains. Nuff said.

Every new train to come along has been heavier than its predecessor.



Good to see that even with a radical idea of buying new stock, that Northern still have to make do with cast-offs. How about some new stock straight to them instead ?

 

[GNERman]

Every new train to come along has been heavier than its predecessor.

Really??

Are you saying that the Parry People Movers on the Stourbirdge Branch are heavier than the 153 they replaced???

 

[royaloak]

Better- really, doors in the saloon not at the ends, hardly Inter City travel,
quicker- possibly,
more fuel efficient- are you sure,
more reliable- mmm debatable,
lighter trains- you think ,
Nuff said- yep.

The EMT would influence the DafT to order them for their franchise- and rock the boat, they took the franchise on these terms and they are NOT subject to change except in very serious circumstances.

think that covers everything

 

[TheWalrus]

but how likely is it that this is going to happen? this is a good plan, all would benefit but how dire is the situation that EMT is in?

Dont know exactly, but it would sort out everyone in one foul swoop
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So EMT will pay the increased leasing charges for what reason exactly?

And when will people realise that ALL rolling stock procurement is done by the DaFT and the franchises have very little say in any of it!

To help relieve over crowding, and they could apply to DfT.
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Better, quicker, more fuel efficient, more reliable, lighter trains. Nuff said.



The EMT would influence the DafT to order them for their franchise.

Thank you GNERman! For answering those questions and realising my point. Cheers
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Every new train to come along has been heavier than its predecessor.



Good to see that even with a radical idea of buying new stock, that Northern still have to make do with cast-offs. How about some new stock straight to them instead ?

Is Northern your local TOC? If so, I could say that for FGW...
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think that covers everything

I think you will find 170s used to operate these routes under CT and people preferred them to 158s...

 

[WillPS]

I'd love to see Turbostars back on the the former Citylink route. Unfortunately, it wont happen now until at least 2015. EMT have 0 commitment to new build and are ¾ of the way through a refurb of their Express Sprinter fleet. If they get the cascaded 156s and double all 158s, we can't really complain....

 

[Crossforth]

Really??

Are you saying that the Parry People Movers on the Stourbirdge Branch are heavier than the 153 they replaced???

Also, am I correct in saying that Voyagers are lighter than HSTs of the same length?

(I know they are less comfortable but that ain't the question)

 

[Drsatan]

Also, am I correct in saying that Voyagers are lighter than HSTs of the same length?

(I know they are less comfortable but that ain't the question)

Yep, class 43s are RA5 whereas voyagers have an RA of 2, so in other words, Voyagers are lighter.

 

[royaloak]

Wrong, a HST POWER CAR is RA 5, nothing to do with the coaches.
the HST power cars are 70.25 tonnes, and the coaches 33.5 tonnes roughly.
so a 2+8 is 428. 5 tonnes

on a meridian the driving cars are about 52 tonnes and the intermediate coaches roughly 47 tonnes, so a 10 coach meridian would be roughly 490 tonnes,

it is just the fact that the weight is distributed more evenly through-out the train on the meridian that gives it the lower route availability (and access charges).
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The rough seating capacities would be -
HST-112F/ 365S
Mer- 106F/ 372S

 

[Voyager 2093]

Supposing the 158s did cascade, im sure Chiltern would be interested, they could complement thier Brum and Kidderminster services.

Just a though.

 

[jamesontheroad]

If there should be any cascade of 158 trains, there should be units going to not from EMT. With this refurbishment they're finally up to the standard that they need to be internally for the cross-country and local routes. If they could be doubled up, at the very least on the core Liverpool / Nottingham segment, then I think an all 158 fleet would be preferable to any Turbostar.

 

[TheWalrus]

Good to see that even with a radical idea of buying new stock, that Northern still have to make do with cast-offs. How about some new stock straight to them instead ?

Because Preston-Blackpool and Preston-Manchester will now be electrified, so Northern will be needing additional EMUs, cascading their DMUs to strengthen other services. Therefore more DMUs are less likely to be necessary. On the other hand, the chances of Liverpool-Norwich being electrified end-to-end is probably a lot smaller, meaning new DMUs for EMT makes more sense than Northern. Plus if Heathrow Express got SuperExpresses to replace their 332s, they could move to Northern to accommodate the newly electrified lines.
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I'd love to see Turbostars back on the the former Citylink route. Unfortunately, it wont happen now until at least 2015. EMT have 0 commitment to new build and are ¾ of the way through a refurb of their Express Sprinter fleet. If they get the cascaded 156s and double all 158s, we can't really complain....

No we can't. But then its just one idea to combat overcrowding and operate more trains to accommodate growing demand. There's probably more than one way of doing it, e.g. send them to FGW, who have an internal cascade, releasing pacers for example.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think you will find 170s used to operate these routes under CT and people preferred them to 158s...

Be careful with that claim it is very hard to prove. I prefer the 158 myself. 1/3 and 2/3 doors are fine on commutor runs but on IC runs I prefer doors at the end. (I know it is just me). On Norwich to Liverpool the stops in the majority of cases are at least 20 minutes apart (OK I know about Manchester Oxford Road - Piccadilly). On Scotrail the 170's improved the dwell times of the Edinburgh - Glasgow route and increased the seating but people like the refurbished 158's if they are travelling to Inverness. What the majority of people prefer is unknown as no-one has never asked on services when you have the choice of both.

Remember we SWT got rid of the 170's for the 158's there were not howls of protest either once the 158's were refurbished to the same standard as the 159's.

 

[The Planner]

Better, quicker, more fuel efficient, more reliable, lighter trains. Nuff said.

What they gain in performance is allegedly lost in an an awful door opening/closing cycle. They may get from A-B quicker, but will be spending more time at A and B !

 

[djw1981]

Better, quicker, more fuel efficient, more reliable, lighter trains. Nuff said.



The EMT would influence the DafT to order them for their franchise.

But then their franchise finances would change. Stagecoach bid foir the franchise knowing what the rolling stock available was.
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On Scotrail the 170's improved the dwell times of the Edinburgh - Glasgow route and increased the seating but people like the refurbished 158's if they are travelling to Inverness. What the majority of people prefer is unknown as no-one has never asked on services when you have the choice of both.

I would disagree regarding people preferring 158 refurb over 170 on those routes. On some ABD trains you have a choice on the same train (170+158 combo) and in my experience the 170 has higher loading than 158. The seats are more comfortable, the unit is brighter, airier and more pleasant than the 158 which is a ghastly hole by comparison.

 

[tbtc]

There's a few places where "spare" 158s would be appreciated, like Middlesbrough - Newcastle - Carlisle.

However, three car units at EMT may be enough for some services, but not enough for the Nottingham - Manchester service, for example

 

[GNERman]

There's a few places where "spare" 158s would be appreciated, like Middlesbrough - Newcastle - Carlisle.

That isn't a service anymore. Only Middlesborough - Hexham, or change at Newcastle and go with FSR.

Anyway what's the point of having them there? It's only 75 max on the line, a waste for 90mph 158's...

 

[asylumxl]

Simpler idea. Scrap Crossrail and other unnecessary projects, and allocate the money to some new rolling stock...

Not gonna happen i know.

 

[The Planner]

Anyway what's the point of having them there? It's only 75 max on the line, a waste for 90mph 158's...

ATWs only just get above that on the Cambrian services, stick a load of 150s on them if thats the case.

 

[GNERman]

Simpler idea. Scrap Crossrail and other unnecessary projects, and allocate the money to some new rolling stock...

Not gonna happen i know.

Would please many people outside of the capitol, who have at least ten tube lines and ten main terminals...

ATWs only just get above that on the Cambrian services, stick a load of 150s on them if thats the case.

158's are the nicer trains but the route suggested would be better for 156's, the S+C line is a good example for above, they are the nicer train for the longer journey...

 

[Fincra5]

East Midlands Trains are part of stagecoach, as you know, and SWT only had turbostars whilst the 158 and 159s were being refurbished (etc). It would seem stagecoach like the 158/159s over turbostars. SO i couldnt see the EMT being replaced either.

 

[Ivo]

Simpler idea. Scrap Crossrail and other unnecessary projects, and allocate the money to some new rolling stock...

Not gonna happen i know.

Hey?! Dump Crossrail?! London needs it! There might be 11 Tube lines (though one is merely a non-stop 2km link), and 12 (I think) termini, but the capital's network is badly overcrowded, and if I'm honest, dated. Not to mention the Chelney line, which you might have a case with.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would disagree regarding people preferring 158 refurb over 170 on those routes. On some ABD trains you have a choice on the same train (170+158 combo) and in my experience the 170 has higher loading than 158. The seats are more comfortable, the unit is brighter, airier and more pleasant than the 158 which is a ghastly hole by comparison.

The trouble is with Scotrails 158 is the massive difference. I would agree 100% with you analysis of the 158 been ghastly holes if they are 158725 (or upwards) that have only had the minor refurbishment. However 158701 - 724 which have had a decent refurbishment are very nice trains, the internal lighting has been improved no-end along with better seats fitted. If you ever travel on a train with 2x 158 coupled together you notice the lighting difference from the platform. That said I think people choose the unit they sit in by the position it arrives on the platform rather than type of train. In both case 170+158 and 158 (old) + 158 (new) I have seen very few people move position on the platform to the other set type and those few that do you don't know if they prefer the unit or are just avoiding paying. I often see people on 170+170 trains seeing which end the guard is in and choosing the opposite set (nice if the gaurd then also swaps)

That isn't a service anymore. Only Middlesborough - Hexham, or change at Newcastle and go with FSR.

Anyway what's the point of having them there? It's only 75 max on the line, a waste for 90mph 158's...

Hmm, lets think of 158's on unsuitable route and more suitable alternatives.

Glasgow - Anniesland (Pacer)
Edinburgh - Fife Circle
Inverness - Kyle / Wick (156)

Remember when national express operated both Scotrail and Central they wanted to swap 156's from Central with 158's from Scotrail. 156402 was even painted in Scotrail livery. Transport Scotland blocked this.

 

[starrymarkb]

East Midlands Trains are part of stagecoach, as you know, and SWT only had turbostars whilst the 158 and 159s were being refurbished (etc). It would seem stagecoach like the 158/159s over turbostars. SO i couldnt see the EMT being replaced either.

SWT weren't impressed with the reliability of the Turbostars when compared with their 159s. Also they saw advantages of having a common fleet and the economies of scale that result. Having 31 similar units is better then having 22 of one type and 8 of another

 

[tbtc]

Hmm, lets think of 158's on unsuitable route and more suitable alternatives.

Glasgow - Anniesland (Pacer)
Edinburgh - Fife Circle
Inverness - Kyle / Wick (156)

Totally agree. Middlesbrough to Newcastle is a journey many do, and really ought to have something better than a 156 or even Pacer doing it

Remember when national express operated both Scotrail and Central they wanted to swap 156's from Central with 158's from Scotrail. 156402 was even painted in Scotrail livery. Transport Scotland blocked this.

That should never have been blocked - ScotRail would have been better operationally with 156/170s, and Central Trains at the time ran some long distance services that a 158 would have been better for
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That isn't a service anymore. Only Middlesborough - Hexham, or change at Newcastle and go with FSR.

Anyway what's the point of having them there? It's only 75 max on the line, a waste for 90mph 158's...

....because its a long journey (over an hour) between the two places, which a lot of passengers do, so demands a bit more comfort than some of the "local" services that 158s at other TOCs operate. The difference between 156 and 158 isn't just about top speed.

 

[WillPS]

158s aren't all that to be honest. The door arrangement isn't great and will probably end up being revised at some stage to suit disability laws etc. The internal pressure doors are not reliable (frequently stuck open/closed) and the disabled toilet door is even worse.

For standing passengers, they're not good at all. Turbostar wins hands down here because of the nice open areas around the doors and all the bars.

 

[tbtc]

158s aren't all that to be honest. The door arrangement isn't great

The doors are the thing that a lot of posters on here dislike about the 170s. Personally, I'm more bothered about ride quality than door location