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Possible GTR fleet structure if services are reduced by 20%?

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Minstral25

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mods note, split from this thread:https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-379’s-departure-from-greater-anglia.226784/

If GTR is about to cut it's services by 20% (as said elsewhere is apparently the Treasury's wish), which will probably result in reduction of fleet size. The 455/313's are 19.4% of the 3/4/5 car fleet (i.e. ignoring 700/717 & 171 which are route specific), why does GTR need the 379's?

Just use stock efficiently with a 20% reduction in services?

Not that I support this idea, but it may explain why 379's are off to store rather than Hornsey.
 
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DanNCL

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If GTR is about to cut it's services by 20% (as said elsewhere is apparently the Treasury's wish), which will probably result in reduction of fleet size. The 455/313's are 19.4% of the 3/4/5 car fleet (i.e. ignoring 700/717 & 171 which are route specific), why does GTR need the 379's?

Just use stock efficiently with a 20% reduction in services?

Not that I support this idea, but it may explain why 379's are off to store rather than Hornsey.
GTR have already cut their fleet size, that’s why the 365s went.
 

JonathanH

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GTR have already cut their fleet size, that’s why the 365s went.
The Southern part of the operation hasn't (other than some 387s that are quite easily released with Gatwick Express not running a full timetable).

The question with the 379s is whether the GN operation can identify a suitable service which only needs a fleet of 30 units.
 
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YSTrains

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The Southern part of the operation hasn't (other than some 387s that are quite easily released with Gatwick Express not running a full timetable).

The question with the 379s is whether the GN operation can identify a suitable service which only needs a fleet of 30 units.
Well they have to find something to replace the Gatwick 387s.
 

Fincra5

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The Southern part of the operation hasn't (other than some 387s that are quite easily released with Gatwick Express not running a full timetable).

The question with the 379s is whether the GN operation can identify a suitable service which only needs a fleet of 30 units.
Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn services.

If GTR is about to cut it's services by 20% (as said elsewhere is apparently the Treasury's wish), which will probably result in reduction of fleet size. The 455/313's are 19.4% of the 3/4/5 car fleet (i.e. ignoring 700/717 & 171 which are route specific), why does GTR need the 379's?

Just use stock efficiently with a 20% reduction in services?

Not that I support this idea, but it may explain why 379's are off to store rather than Hornsey.
The push of 387s South of the River will seemingly aim to great a more common fleet of Electrostars (Ridding 313s and 455s if they can). But Obvs GN will need some units instead, thats where 379s come in.
 

Minstral25

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The push of 387s South of the River will seemingly aim to great a more common fleet of Electrostars (Ridding 313s and 455s if they can). But Obvs GN will need some units instead, thats where 379s come in.

I understand that and it was good plan in 2019.

However my point was if Southern are going to reduce services in 2022 by 20% from current level of service then there will be spare units to do this anyway without the 379's pushing 387s south. Southern will not need any 387's from GN.

I suspect it won't be as simple as that, with 700's covering turns on Southern & GN and perhaps even 717's covering inner services on GN, as both Thameslink and GN's Moorgate services will also be seeing cuts. The GTR fleet could be big enough anyway to cover withdrawal of the 455s and 313s.

Look at what's happening on SWR & SouthEastern, I just can't see DfT authorising additional leasing costs on GTR that are not needed
 

Peregrine 4903

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If GTR is about to cut it's services by 20% (as said elsewhere is apparently the Treasury's wish), which will probably result in reduction of fleet size. The 455/313's are 19.4% of the 3/4/5 car fleet (i.e. ignoring 700/717 & 171 which are route specific), why does GTR need the 379's?

Just use stock efficiently with a 20% reduction in services?

Not that I support this idea, but it may explain why 379's are off to store rather than Hornsey.
Where did you hear the 20% figure from?
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I suspect it won't be as simple as that, with 700's covering turns on Southern & GN and perhaps even 717's covering inner services on GN, as both Thameslink and GN's Moorgate services will also be seeing cuts. The GTR fleet could be big enough anyway to cover withdrawal of the 455s and 313s.

Look at what's happening on SWR & SouthEastern, I just can't see DfT authorising additional leasing costs on GTR that are not needed
SE have additional leasing costs for the 707 v what they pay for the removed 465's.

On SWR the DofT/Treasury must be very grateful that the 701s aren't yet in service as the lease charges on them are significantly more than the 455's that will be displaced.

Currently i see the 379's being left in warm store unless the new owners, Akiem, offer DofT a rate thats comparable with removing some older stock. In the medium term when (i don't buy traffic not recovering only the high peak consigned to history) the stock will be dusted down and deployed and GN seems best location as the 387's already setup for DC.
 

Fincra5

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I understand that and it was good plan in 2019.

However my point was if Southern are going to reduce services in 2022 by 20% from current level of service then there will be spare units to do this anyway without the 379's pushing 387s south. Southern will not need any 387's from GN.

I suspect it won't be as simple as that, with 700's covering turns on Southern & GN and perhaps even 717's covering inner services on GN, as both Thameslink and GN's Moorgate services will also be seeing cuts. The GTR fleet could be big enough anyway to cover withdrawal of the 455s and 313s.

Look at what's happening on SWR & SouthEastern, I just can't see DfT authorising additional leasing costs on GTR that are not needed
Because even with a reduction in services, there wouldn't be enough 377s and GX 387s to replace 455s and 313s...
 

JonathanH

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Because even with a reduction in services, there wouldn't be enough 377s and GX 387s to replace 455s and 313s...
Doesn't that depend on how deep the reduction in services is? A train plan could be written that only uses 377s. Whether it meets the residual demand is another matter.
 

Peregrine 4903

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The amount of speculation that is going on here for a non-specullative ideas thread is ridiculous.

Also, some people really do love the idea of massive service reductions, way beyond the current ones.
 

Fincra5

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The amount of speculation that is going on here for a non-specullative ideas thread is ridiculous.

Also, some people really do love the idea of massive service reductions, way beyond the current ones.
Indeed!
 

Minstral25

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Not that I support this idea, but it may explain why 379's are off to store rather than Hornsey.

Also, some people really do love the idea of massive service reductions, way beyond the current ones.

I didn't say I supported the idea of massive service cuts, just sadly seems to be expected as Railways cut their costs.

Personally I'd prefer the Government to keep its current investment going, add more and provide good public transport generally right across the UK. Just don't realistically think it is going to happen.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Leaving 4 units, seems unlikely.
I meant 001-024 actually, sorry, but yes even so leaving six units does seem odd.

The amount of speculation that is going on here for a non-specullative ideas thread is ridiculous.
Especially as nothing has been confirmed by either TOC. The insistence that 379s would go to Great Northern only seemed to pop it's head up because of their similarities with the current 387s, just like how everyone takes it to be definite that 221s with Avanti West Coast will go over to CrossCountry, just because CrossCountry operate the same stock. They seem pretty sensible assumptions based on those similarities, but then as we know, the railway can and does throw curveballs.
 

Peregrine 4903

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I meant 001-024 actually, sorry, but yes even so leaving six units does seem odd.


Especially as nothing has been confirmed by either TOC. The insistence that 379s would go to Great Northern only seemed to pop it's head up because of their similarities with the current 387s, just like how everyone takes it to be definite that 221s with Avanti West Coast will go over to CrossCountry, just because CrossCountry operate the same stock. They seem pretty sensible assumptions based on those similarities, but then as we know, the railway can and does throw curveballs.
That though is much more than a rumour the 379's going to Great Northern. I was more talking about the other stuff.
 

Energy

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I meant 001-024 actually, sorry, but yes even so leaving six units does seem odd.
Seems unlikely, you could get by with 30 379s at GN, 24 would require 387s or even more service reduction (remember the 365s are gone).

This thread should probably be used for more speculative discussion though.
 

aleggatta

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I meant 001-024 actually, sorry, but yes even so leaving six units does seem odd.
Not trying to cast doubt on what you are saying has been said, but going by what you have said, could it be that 387101-124 could head south leaving 125-129 up north with the 379 fleet, which could potentially allow for when the 387/3 fleet becomes available to cascade the remaining /1s down south, leaving GN with the 379's and 387/3's. It would be interesting to know how many units are required for SN Brighton/london services as this could be an operational convenience with the GX stock as far as crewing these services.

My apologies if I've got that wrong, but also aware of the thread title and how it might just be my rose tinted specs making me see this as an appropriate post for this thread! Wrist suitably slapped in case I do fall foul of the line!
 

Class 466

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With a 20% cut you could easily cascade 377s around to replace 455s. Will be interesting to see if the MKC service survives. If not then you’ve got another 14 377/2 (out of 15) to use as well. You’d also get the benefit of being able to utilise some stations better if everything is formed of either 4/8 or 5 car 377s at London Bridge for example. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
 

JonathanH

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Will be interesting to see if the MKC service survives.
Interesting question. On the face of it, it would seem a prime candidate to be axed. It seems to have been culled for a lot of the last two years and represents a service that runs into the operating territory of another operator. I imagine its running costs don't match well to its revenue.

As you note, this would yield 377s to displace 455s without axing a core route.
 

bramling

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The Southern part of the operation hasn't (other than some 387s that are quite easily released with Gatwick Express not running a full timetable).

The question with the 379s is whether the GN operation can identify a suitable service which only needs a fleet of 30 units.

30x 379 gives you a full half-hourly Ely/Kings Lynn service, with 8 cars to Kings Lynn and 12 cars for most peak flow London services. It also gives three 8-car or two 12-car peak Peterborough services per peak.

This leaves the bulk of the peak Peterborough service, and all of the peak Baldock service - though you might be able to deliver a small number of these if 12-car working on the Cambridge fasts is slashed.

Two 700/0 could be freed up if you run a Saturday service on the 2Cxx services, and reduce this service by 50% between Royston and Cambridge. A further three 700/0 can be freed up if Welwyn to Sevenoaks is deferred and the peak Welwyns remain omitted. That could allow some more Peterboroughs, a full half-hourly peak Baldock service, or a mix of both.

How viable this all is remains a matter of conjecture, as there are already complaints of overcrowding especially on the 717 services. Likewise it may be the case that the Baldocks are easier to reinstate than the Peterboroughs, simply because they place less demand on resources. You could run the full peak Baldock service with 4x 700/0, whereas the Peterborough services use considerably more units.

Other possibilities for the GN side might be to keep the 12-car Cambridge Electrostar services but add additional stops, or cut one of the Cambridge-Brighton services back to Royston (or even Letchworth) each hour. The latter might pacify users from further in who value having a service which originates from closer to home. Reversing at Royston possibly wouldn’t save a unit but might save a driver.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Interesting question. On the face of it, it would seem a prime candidate to be axed. It seems to have been culled for a lot of the last two years and represents a service that runs into the operating territory of another operator. I imagine its running costs don't match well to its revenue.

As you note, this would yield 377s to displace 455s without axing a core route.

I would be astonished to see it go entirely, but reducing it to a Clapham to Watford shuttle (as it was for a long time) would retain the busiest bit and release some units. The demand from places closer to London to Westfield is surprisingly large, the middle bit is not a backwater like it was before Westfield opened.
 

DanNCL

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I think something useful to take into account is that cutting services by 20% won’t mean cutting the fleet by 20%.

I’m not convinced that services will be cut by as much as 20% in the long run (my own opinion is that apart from the Victoria-Gatwick shuttles and “peak hour” extras nothing should be cut) however I’m working on the basis of such drastic cuts happening for the basis of my suggestions.

My plan would see the following changes:
In - 30x 379s
Out - 46x 455s, 19x 313s, 4x 171s

Thameslink branded services would not be immune from cuts, and therefore some 700s would be available for other use. For this we’ll work on the basis of 10 700s made spare, all 8 cars. This is less than 10% of the total 700 fleet, so completely conceivable to think there’ll be this number of spare 700s with service cuts of 20%. Rather than using these out of Kings Cross, I’d actually have them work 8 car max “Metro” routes out of Victoria or London Bridge, directly replacing 20 455s.

Gatwick Express would almost certainly go back to being just the 2tph Brighton service. We’ll assume that frees up 12 387s (4x 12 cars).

The arrival of 379s at Hornsey would free up all 29 387/1s. Between the two 387 fleets, 41 units would be spare.

16 387s would see off the 313s. The remaining 25 387s would be able to see off the remaining 455s, mostly likely indirectly with a reshuffle involving 377s.

Finally, with there likely not being peak extras to/from Uckfield anymore, the ex-ScotRail 171s could be converted back to 170s and make their way to EMR.

As far as crew training goes, apart from various conversions between different Electrostar classes as and where needed, the only new training needed would be some Southern Metro drivers on 700s.

Not trying to cast doubt on what you are saying has been said, but going by what you have said, could it be that 387101-124 could head south leaving 125-129 up north with the 379 fleet, which could potentially allow for when the 387/3 fleet becomes available to cascade the remaining /1s down south, leaving GN with the 379's and 387/3's. It would be interesting to know how many units are required for SN Brighton/london services as this could be an operational convenience with the GX stock as far as crewing these services.

My apologies if I've got that wrong, but also aware of the thread title and how it might just be my rose tinted specs making me see this as an appropriate post for this thread! Wrist suitably slapped in case I do fall foul of the line!
I believe the 387/3s are confirmed to be heading to GWR (and the three that are already there staying there).
 

HamworthyGoods

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As far as crew training goes, apart from various conversions between different Electrostar classes as and where needed, the only new training needed would be some Southern Metro drivers on 700s.

379s have some quite big differences to 387s in terms of operation for the driver, no ASDO and no wrong side door release protection (unlike all other GN stock).

I’m sure there’s plenty of other modifications that will be needed too.
 

QSK19

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Finally, with there likely not being peak extras to/from Uckfield anymore, the ex-ScotRail 171s could be converted back to 170s and make their way to EMR.
Not sure there’s a need for them at EMR now that procurement of the 171s has effectively been replaced by TfW’s 170s moving to the East Midlands. Add to that the fact that the 158s should be staying put as a consequence of Nottingham-Liverpool remaining with EMR.

So, GTR will either need to keep the 4x 171s you refer to or they’ll have to go off-lease if no other TOC needs them.
 

Fincra5

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I think something useful to take into account is that cutting services by 20% won’t mean cutting the fleet by 20%.

I’m not convinced that services will be cut by as much as 20% in the long run (my own opinion is that apart from the Victoria-Gatwick shuttles and “peak hour” extras nothing should be cut) however I’m working on the basis of such drastic cuts happening for the basis of my suggestions.

My plan would see the following changes:
In - 30x 379s
Out - 46x 455s, 19x 313s, 4x 171s

Thameslink branded services would not be immune from cuts, and therefore some 700s would be available for other use. For this we’ll work on the basis of 10 700s made spare, all 8 cars. This is less than 10% of the total 700 fleet, so completely conceivable to think there’ll be this number of spare 700s with service cuts of 20%. Rather than using these out of Kings Cross, I’d actually have them work 8 car max “Metro” routes out of Victoria or London Bridge, directly replacing 20 455s.

Gatwick Express would almost certainly go back to being just the 2tph Brighton service. We’ll assume that frees up 12 387s (4x 12 cars).

The arrival of 379s at Hornsey would free up all 29 387/1s. Between the two 387 fleets, 41 units would be spare.

16 387s would see off the 313s. The remaining 25 387s would be able to see off the remaining 455s, mostly likely indirectly with a reshuffle involving 377s.

Finally, with there likely not being peak extras to/from Uckfield anymore, the ex-ScotRail 171s could be converted back to 170s and make their way to EMR.

As far as crew training goes, apart from various conversions between different Electrostar classes as and where needed, the only new training needed would be some Southern Metro drivers on 700s.


I believe the 387/3s are confirmed to be heading to GWR (and the three that are already there staying there).
Not a bad idea but i'd look more towards using 700/0s on the WLL and reducing it to Clapham Jnc - Watford Jnc. The WLL can be really crowded with Shoppers and a 700 would swallow them up.

Thus releasing some 377s to other SN work.

I'd have 379s at GN all 30 would be enough for GN incl Peak Extras (with a TT reduction).

Send the 387s to replace 455s (Current Differences mean they could be contained on 455 diagrams).

377/3s back to the Coast to get rid of 313s (reducing 10 car Metro a bit... still 377/6 and 7s).
 

Chrisgr31

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So, GTR will either need to keep the 4x 171s you refer to or they’ll have to go off-lease if no other TOC needs them.
Which 171s are the 4 though? The 2 car units or the 4 car ones? There don’t seem to be many spare sitting in the depot when I pass.
 
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