Possible Movement in RMT Dispute.

[12LDA28C]

When I signed my contract, (yes legally binding contract) it clearly stated Sunday was voluntary and outside of normal working hours. So I have and will continue to have every right to refuse to work it. The dft need to put Sundays within the working week, then most of us will happily work them. Simples. Dft can't have it's cake and eat it im afraid.

As is your right, of course. But I assume when you first joined the railway you accepted that weekend working was a given, including Sundays. Personally I find that working Sundays is easier and less stressful as there's less management around, less passengers, more engineering work meaning less intense drivers' diagrams and so on. Not to mention the overtime available for working Sunday and I'd much rather have a day off in the week when much of the rest of the world is at work.

If you read Genesis you will understand.

Great band, I'll grant you - even after Peter Gabriel left, up to a point. Any religious connotation falls on deaf ears here I'm afraid.

 

[footprints]

One was a two year deal, with only 4% given in the second year irrespective of how many changes to terms and conditions were to take place at individual TOC's - and the first year's 5% wouldn't be paid unless the 'whole package' was agreed. [One could say it was deliberately unreasonable - see below*]

That might have been what the January offer looked like but it's certainly nothing like the April offer.

The April offer was 5% for 2022, a guarantee on no compulsory redundancies, and a commitment to end the dispute and enter talks (with the opportunity to re-ballot three months down the line). Remarkably similar to where we are now then. The 5% for 2022 wasn't conditional on anything else in the April offer, the same as it isn't now.

 

[12LDA28C]

I've not done a Sunday for 5 years but if the company make the job 5 days out of 7 with 2 rest days together in the week I'll happily come in on Sunday and "suck it up" as you sarcastically say.

Working just rostered Sundays (19 per 52 weeks) is worth approx. £6,500 on top of base salary at my TOC. Most drivers are more than happy to work them and take the money. Very few exercise their right to not work any.

 

[Facing Back]

Great band, I'll grant you - even after Peter Gabriel left, up to a point. Any religious connotation falls on deaf ears here I'm afraid.

Hands off you! I got the Peter G joke in first

 

[yorksrob]

Classic Rock

 

[KM1991]

Greater Anglia already saying they might not be able to pay in any back pay for December…

 

[Snow1964]

Greater Anglia already saying they might not be able to pay in any back pay for December…

Back pay tends to need manual calculation, payroll systems do not normally have more than add X days or Y percentage.

Usually a right faff, especially if got to check everyone to see if they got promoted or changed allowances during the adjustment period, or have non payment days because they went on strike as that affects the amount owed.

To some extent any employee who failed to properly let payroll know of any strike days during back pay period is contributing to any delay in paying it.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I am sure you will find that all Rail delivery group TOC's in this current dispute will push for workforce reforms. Whether by agreement or forced through. We are back to March 2023 currently. If they don't get this through then the no compulsory redundancy till end 2024 will be dropped. So terms and conditions are still part of this as 'multi skilled' station grade staff with flat rate, no enhancements, commited overtime on sundays and on board train crew with short notice changes to rest days as I read it. Happy to be corrected.

My take on it is that the "we'll impose the changes anyway" threat was probably related to ticket offices and station staff more than anything else as that was a redundancy and whole new job role scenario. Now that's been blown away that isn't an issue. For everyone else it would be very difficult nigh on impossible to change Ts and Cs dramatically without a fire and rehire process, which they realistically wouldn't be able to do, and they probably know it.

Thus any fail to agree when discussing things next year will just turn the current dispute and strikes back on again, albeit with everyone on a higher rater of pay.

 

[irish_rail]

As is your right, of course. But I assume when you first joined the railway you accepted that weekend working was a given, including Sundays. Personally I find that working Sundays is easier and less stressful as there's less management around, less passengers, more engineering work meaning less intense drivers' diagrams and so on. Not to mention the overtime available for working Sunday and I'd much rather have a day off in the week when much of the rest of the world is at work.



Great band, I'll grant you - even after Peter Gabriel left, up to a point. Any religious connotation falls on deaf ears here I'm afraid.

Yes my issue isn't working on a Sunday, my issue is being made to work a 6 day week. Getting up at 3am 5 days a week is more than enough for me without having to have the 6th day on top. If they want to add Sunday into the working week and I get a day off in the week instead, then I'd be happy with that, but Dft have stated they don't want that.

 

[30907]

Historically large parts of the country had no services on a Sunday

True, but that represented only a very small part of the total service (or the population). At the other extreme, the Southern Electric ran almost the full offpeak weekday service on Sundays for decades.

 

[Llandudno]

Historically large parts of the country had no services on a Sunday

and some parts of the country still don’t..!

 

[Chris172]

What does the anniversary part mean?

 

[Bald Rick]

If they want to add Sunday into the working week and I get a day off in the week instead, then I'd be happy with that, but Dft have stated they don't want that

Where did DfT state that?

If i were you, I’d be on to your rep to say you want a 4 day week, which is pretty typical of those on shift work with a 35h week.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes my issue isn't working on a Sunday, my issue is being made to work a 6 day week. Getting up at 3am 5 days a week is more than enough for me without having to have the 6th day on top. If they want to add Sunday into the working week and I get a day off in the week instead, then I'd be happy with that, but Dft have stated they don't want that.

Where has this been stated? Sundays in the working week requires a complete roster overhaul for roles that don't have it and thefore a headcount increase.

You can't make it work on the same number of working hours in the contract of any job, so you need an increase, even with 'committed Sundays'. This is what the DfT don't like; they want the best of both worlds but at some point they'll have to appreciate reality!

 

[irish_rail]

Where has this been stated? Sundays in the working week requires a complete roster overhaul for roles that don't have it and thefore a headcount increase.

You can't make it work on the same number of working hours in the contract of any job, so you need an increase, even with 'committed Sundays'. This is what the DfT don't like; they want the best of both worlds but at some point they'll have to appreciate reality!

Sorry, I say stated , I mean this is what I've heard, that Dft want best of both worlds , rather than accepting what is best for staff and the travelling public (ie Sunday within the working week).

Where has this been stated? Sundays in the working week requires a complete roster overhaul for roles that don't have it and thefore a headcount increase.

You can't make it work on the same number of working hours in the contract of any job, so you need an increase, even with 'committed Sundays'. This is what the DfT don't like; they want the best of both worlds but at some point they'll have to appreciate reality!

Where did DfT state that?

If i were you, I’d be on to your rep to say you want a 4 day week, which is pretty typical of those on shift work with a 35h week.

Reps are very much aware of this being what most drivers want , its just I suspect the money won't be forthcoming to pay for it.

 

[Krokodil]

Fabulous television wasn’t it?

Is it available online anywhere? Either a recording or the transcript?

Back on topic: as a mere passenger, obviously news of a possible resolution is good news, but I'd far rather all the reliability issues were sorted out - it's much more difficult to book around them than the strikes, after all!

Improving industrial relations will help with reliability.

 

[dk1]

Is it available online anywhere? Either a recording or the transcript?

Oh now I’m not over sure if I’m honest as was a good while ago and broadcast on the BBC Parliament Channel.

 

[Krokodil]

If anyone can remember the date I'm sure that I can look up the transcript

 

[father_jack]

To @Bald Rick and @Horizon22 it was stated here in the document from RDG dated 13th April 2023.

7‐day Railway
These arrangements only apply where TOC’s do not currently have a robust commitment from employees to work rostered Sundays. Where existing TOC arrangements are already in place which provide greater flexibility, those arrangements are expected to continue to operate.

Those TOCs who do not have currently have in place a commitment to work rostered Sundays will require a variation to the working arrangements of employeesto establish robust arrangements which will be subject to a maximum of 18 committed rostered instances per annum: ‐
• Employees who are rostered to work a Sunday shift are committed and contractually required to work their shift where an alternative competent employee cannot be identified to cover.
• Where Sundays are rostered in the middle weekend of a two‐week annual leave block, the commitment to work will not apply.
• Where Sundays are currently outside of the basic working week and an existing employee has historically not worked their rostered Sunday turns, those employees will be given a one‐off opportunity prior to the implementation of this Integral Principle to seek a permanent exemption from all future Sunday working by giving written notice to be excluded from working their rostered Sunday turns.
• Where other existing employees wish to seek permanent exemption from Sunday working this will be considered and only granted once committed cover can be provided from within existing staffing and/or, part‐time or extra weekend‐only employees can be recruited and trained to cover. The current arrangements for job share applications will remain unaffected.
• Where Sundays are currently committed to be worked that are in addition to the basic average contracted working hours per week, existing payment arrangements will continue to apply except where part‐time or weekend only employees are recruited, any Sunday enhancements will only be payable where the employee has worked the average basic contracted working hours per week of their grade.

 

[Horizon22]

To @Bald Rick and @Horizon22 it was stated here in the document from RDG dated 13th April 2023.

It says a lot, but doesn't actually answer how coverage will work where there will evidently be gaps by having contracted hours which would need to be taken out of Mon-Sat. It's the DFT wanting to have their cake and eat it too.

You can't expect - in this industry at least - to want an overall X% additional driver hours coverage rostered without some sort of equivalent x% increase in headcount. Sure you can squeeze out "efficiencies" in diagrams, but that won't cover it all.

 

[irish_rail]

It says a lot, but doesn't actually answer how coverage will work where there will evidently be gaps by having contracted hours which would need to be taken out of Mon-Sat. It's the DFT wanting to have their cake and eat it too.

You can't expect - in this industry at least - to want an overall X% additional driver hours coverage rostered without some sort of equivalent x% increase in headcount. Sure you can squeeze out "efficiencies" in diagrams, but that won't cover it all.

Tfw have managed it. Shame the English TOCs aren't given the same freedom.

 

[Bald Rick]

To @Bald Rick and @Horizon22 it was stated here in the document from RDG dated 13th April 2023.

Can you point me to the part where it says it involves a six day week?

 

[Timetraveller]

Can you point me to the part where it says it involves a six day week?

Appendix 5, 7 day railway. Introduction to sunday commitment protocol for staff rostered on Sunday which was is voluntary depending if you work 1 in 6, 1 in 3 or 1 in 2 (with a day off rostered during the week) makes it 6 day week for those that will have to work 1 in 2 Sundays.

 

[Goldfish62]

Tfw have managed it. Shame the English TOCs aren't given the same freedom.

SWT managed to introduce it 20 years ago.

 

[Timetraveller]

My take on it is that the "we'll impose the changes anyway" threat was probably related to ticket offices and station staff more than anything else as that was a redundancy and whole new job role scenario. Now that's been blown away that isn't an issue. For everyone else it would be very difficult nigh on impossible to change Ts and Cs dramatically without a fire and rehire process, which they realistically wouldn't be able to do, and they probably know it.

Thus any fail to agree when discussing things next year will just turn the current dispute and strikes back on again, albeit with everyone on a higher rater of pay.

Certainly still is an issue if they force these changes through for 7 day railway for those lower paid staff often station grade who are currently have either a voluntary rostered sunday, who don't have sunday in their working week They will lose sunday overtime rate and also public bank holiday rates. Especially areas like London and South East will see more agency staff as railway tocs will find it difficult to retain and recruiting staff with lower wage potential. Staff paid higher than the wage band for multi skilled will keep their pay for 5 years but no prospect of a yearly increase until the banded wage reaches their salary or minimum wage rate. Staff on general purpose relief will probably lose the additonal premium wage for being rostered within their station group. Static staff will be expected during disruption to travel to stations within their cluster at their own transport cost. Short time gain, for long term loss on a poor pay increase for many who haven't had an increase for 4 years.

SWT managed to introduce it 20 years ago.

Yes, some on board staff agreed it and got a huge pay rise for it at the time. Station staff were not included and still have voluntary Sundays and day off in lieu for working Bank Holidays.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Certainly still is an issue if they force these changes through for 7 day railway for those lower paid staff often station grade who are currently have either a voluntary rostered sunday, who don't have sunday in their working week They will lose sunday overtime rate and also public bank holiday rates. Especially areas like London and South East will see more agency staff as railway tocs will find it difficult to retain and recruiting staff with lower wage potential. Staff paid higher than the wage band for multi skilled will keep their pay for 5 years but no prospect of a yearly increase until the banded wage reaches their salary or minimum wage rate. Staff on general purpose relief will probably lose the additonal premium wage for being rostered within their station group. Static staff will be expected during disruption to travel to stations within their cluster at their own transport cost. Short time gain, for long term loss on a poor pay increase for many who haven't had an increase for 4 years.

The 7 Day Railway Sunday working arrangements referred to in the April document were for "Committed Sundays" i.e. Overtime on top of the hours already worked. I.e., if you do 35 hours a week Mon to Sat then you would have Compulsory Overtime on a Sunday at a max of 1 every 3 weeks.

Thus there would be no lose of overtime pay, if anything there would be more overtime pay.

The document, and the paragraph quoted above says "Where Sundays are currently committed to be worked that are in addition to the basic average contracted working hours per week, existing payment arrangements will continue to apply". Thus if you already have rostered overtime on Sundays as you refer to above then those pay arrangements still apply.

That all being said, the negotiations referred to in the current proposal are being done locally so whatever is discussed can be discussed and made relevant to each TOC and the local circumstances they already have so what was proposed in April or earlier is largely irrelevant.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, some on board staff agreed it and got a huge pay rise for it at the time. Station staff were not included and still have voluntary Sundays and day off in lieu for working Bank Holidays.

I thought it applied to all SWR on-board staff, not just "some".

 

[Mainsideman]

I thought it applied to all SWR on-board staff, not just "some".

It does all guards and drivers have sunday in the working week. Platform staff however do not.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

That might have been what the January offer looked like but it's certainly nothing like the April offer.

The April offer was 5% for 2022, a guarantee on no compulsory redundancies, and a commitment to end the dispute and enter talks (with the opportunity to re-ballot three months down the line). Remarkably similar to where we are now then. The 5% for 2022 wasn't conditional on anything else in the April offer, the same as it isn't now.

The fairly big difference is the second part of that deal was a maximum of a 4% increase for 2023 dependent on talks, that "limit" is no longer there

For some tocs that 4% limit was a pretty big deal, where little or no terms and conditions had been previously sold, ie sundays the tocs would have gotten them for a bargain, that was a fairly big issue for some I'm led to believe

 

[pt_mad]

Static staff will be expected during disruption to travel to stations within their cluster at their own transport cost.

Where has that been proposed this time around? The published memorandum of understanding mentions multi skilled station staffing but not working a cluster of stations like it did before. This was also expressed by many as being very unpopular in April's proposal.

Would we not assume that the multi stations proposals were withdrawn once they conceded on closure of the ticket offices? After all, it seemed more like a way of simply keeping some staffing presence at some of the smaller stations where they currently have a ticket office, just by having staff move about between them each day.