Possible scam

[Appleturnover]

Hi, I have been contacted by West Midlands digital fraud team about a ticket issue from almost 7 months ago.

They claim I was stopped travelling as an adult on a child ticket. They also claim they can see that I purchased a child ticket that day.

I have gone back through my records. I never purchased a child ticket that day I purchased two adult tickets Also I was never stopped.

They have since shown evidence of my ticket history however they are incorrect but claiming they can see a ticket I purchased. I’m now worried this could be a scam and I have provided sensitive information about my children as I purchased tickets for them shared our rail cards and my address. Since providing my address, I’ve heard nothing since once I proved I had a child to warrant the sporadic child Tickets on my account and my son’s rail card to Warrant his ticket purchases plus my own rail card to warrant my purchases they claims there were gaps in our rail card history. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[John R]

It’s more than likely genuine. WM do a lot of this type of email. Can you (with personal info redacted) post a copy of their email and in particular what address it was from.

 

[Appleturnover]

hi thank you for your response. I’ve attached some correspondence. The email address looks legitimate. However I have been told that this can also be a scam even with an address that looks legitimate. The one thing that made me query is how the end of each email differs from the other in terms of the address being written in a certain way and the logo not always matching but I could be reading too much into it.

Just thought it was strange to be contacted almost 7 months after the alleged incident and everything in their statement was false. However, providing a PDF of my ticket transactions makes me think it is legitimate again. I know this is not impossible for scammers to obtain since providing my address I’ve heard nothing since.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 11:25 ==

If there are gaps in the rail card history it’s completely unintentional. I buy one for myself each year and my son every year would they let me know sums owing via email or through the post?

 

[Blinkbonny]

The total gibberish of the opening paragraph suggests it genuinely is West Midlands. It really is an appalling state of affairs!

 

[Appleturnover]

Are they really likely to get the information so incorrect? I mean I literally wasn’t stopped and I never purchased a child ticket?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 12:02 ==

Also since providing my driving licence as ID last week they have not been in touch with any amounts owing?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 12:04 ==

Once I proved my daughters age for train travel as a child when tickets re bought they claimed gap in mine and my sons railcard history I apologised and said I hadn’t realised in was unintentional and then I stated please tell me any sums I owe and I’ll settle straight away.

 

[John R]

I'm afraid WM does have a reputation for producing emails which range from mediocre to downright awful. If the ball is in their court I would wait and see if you hear from them again. If you do then come back here immediately and there are several experts who will be able to advise what to do.

 

[odetoboy]

hi thank you for your response. I’ve attached some correspondence. The email address looks legitimate. However I have been told that this can also be a scam even with an address that looks legitimate. The one thing that made me query is how the end of each email differs from the other in terms of the address being written in a certain way and the logo not always matching but I could be reading too much into it.

Just thought it was strange to be contacted almost 7 months after the alleged incident and everything in their statement was false. However, providing a PDF of my ticket transactions makes me think it is legitimate again. I know this is not impossible for scammers to obtain since providing my address I’ve heard nothing since.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 11:25 ==

If there are gaps in the rail card history it’s completely unintentional. I buy one for myself each year and my son every year would they let me know sums owing via email or through the post?

I received an email of this nature yesterday, though the accusations on my end were far more severe than a couple of child tickets. It’s reassuring to see they’re seemingly accusing people of things willy nilly and hoping people bite. The main piece of advice I have received is if you haven’t done anything wrong, don’t reply - it feels very tempting to ‘do the right thing’ and ‘clear your name’ because you feel you have nothing to hide, but i get the impression that if they can incriminate you in any way they’ll try their best to.

 

[Appleturnover]

Thank you for your replies. I’ll wait to see what I receive. Unfortunately I provided all the information they required to clear my name however was unaware that there were gaps in our card history. I told them I was unaware I apologised said it was unintentional and offered to pay what was owed.

Additionally, if there are gaps in our row card history from over six months ago and we have never been stopped any of us for said it problems can they still pursue the fares?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 12:43 ==

Thank you I will come back once I hear from them. It’s been almost a week. I assumed I would’ve heard by now.

 

[odetoboy]

Thank you for your replies. I’ll wait to see what I receive. Unfortunately I provided all the information they required to clear my name however was unaware that there were gaps in our card history. I told them I was unaware I apologised said it was unintentional and offered to pay what was owed.

Additionally, if there are gaps in our row card history from over six months ago and we have never been stopped any of us for said it problems can they still pursue the fares?

Your last point is quite significant and I’d also like an answer to that, especially in the case of if there was one transgression for example.

 

[AlterEgo]

The is why you should never respond substantively to these emails if you haven’t been stopped. “I was not stopped on the date you mention and trust I will not hear further from you” would have been quite enough. Now you have ended up incriminating yourself.

 

[Hadders]

WMT has a habit of sending out poorly worded emails.

If you receive an unsolicited email or letter from a train company, having not previosuly been stopped or spoken to, then you effectively have two choices:

1. Do nothing. The train company will continue to write to you threatening police involvement, prosecution for fraud etc. The important principle here is that purchasing tickets is not illegal but using an invalid ticket is illegal. In order to successfully prosecute you the train company has to demonstrate to a court that you used the tickets and they are unlikely to be able to do this unless they caught you red handed. It's possible (but unlikley) that the train company does have evidence to link you to the use of the tickets such as CCTV.

2. Engage with the train company. They will offer you an out of court settlement costing if you pay them the fare for the journeys you've made using invalid tickets. They will charge you the full Anytime rate pnus ad admin fee, typically £150. If you pay what they ask that will be the end of the matter.

In many cases people seeeking our assistance have made journeys using invalid tickets. I understand why train companies want to deal with this. The problem is, if a train company wants to prosecute they must demonstrate, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the purchaser used the tickets. My personal view is that purchasing tickets does not provide sufficuent evidence, as it is perfectly allowable to transfer tickets to another person. It seems to me that train companies send these sort of emails to obtain a confession and if this is forthcoming, they will offer an out of court settlement. Train companies know, people seeking our assistance know, and forum members who are regular contributoes in this area know that in many cases travel has taken place using invalid tickets. But train companies can only deal with the law as it stands, not the law as they would like it to be.

If you decide to go with option 1 then do not engage at all. Do not even aknowledge the email or letter because to do so risks incriminating yourself.

Only you can decide what to do. Essentially it comes down to your appetite for risk...

 

[Appleturnover]

The is why you should never respond substantively to these emails if you haven’t been stopped. “I was not stopped on the date you mention and trust I will not hear further from you” would have been quite enough. Now you have ended up incriminating yourself.

So my initial email to them was I’ve never been stopped please can you provide details of the journey in question.

They then emailed me saying they had reviewed my records could see the ticket I purchased (I have checked my records I never purchased a child ticket on the day they say) and provided me with my ticket history with sporadic railcard discounts. I then had to provide proof of our railcards which I did. And that is when they said there are gaps in our rail card history.

I didn’t admit I knew this as I genuinely didn’t it would be completely unintentional, especially on my son‘s part.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 13:38 ==

WMT has a habit of sending out poorly worded emails.

If you receive an unsolicited email or letter from a train company, having not previosuly been stopped or spoken to, then you effectively have two choices:

1. Do nothing. The train company will continue to write to you threatening police involvement, prosecution for fraud etc. The important principle here is that purchasing tickets is not illegal but using an invalid ticket is illegal. In order to successfully prosecute you the train company has to demonstrate to a court that you used the tickets and they are unlikely to be able to do this unless they caught you red handed. It's possible (but unlikley) that the train company does have evidence to link you to the use of the tickets such as CCTV.

2. Engage with the thrain company. They will offer you an out of court settlement costing if you pay them the fare for the journeys you've made using invalid tickets. They will charge you the full Anytime rate pus ad admin fee, typically £150. If you pay what they ask that will be the end of the matter.

In many cases people seeeking our assistance have made journeys using invalid tickets. I understand train companies want to deal with this. The problem is if a train company wants to prosecute they must demonstrate, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the purchaser used the tickets. My personal view is that purchasing tickets does not provide sufficuent evidence, as it is perfectly allowable to transfer tickets to another person. It seems to me that train companies send these sort of emails to obtain a confession and if this is forthcoming they will offer an out of court settlement. Train companies know, people seeking our assistance know and forum members know that in many cases travel has taken place using invalid tickets. But train companies can only deal with the law as it stands, not the law as they would like it to be.

If you decide to go with option 1 then do not engage at all. Do not even aknowledge the email or letter because to do so risks incriminating yourself.

Only you can decide what to do. Essentially it comes down to your appetite for risk...

As far as I was aware we’ve never used an invalid ticket however they say there are gaps in our rail card history which I was completely unaware of

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 15:22 ==

Hi I have just received this email I am baffled though as I thought the admin fee would be higher. Does this look legitimate before I make the payment.

Personally would have preferred to pay by credit card as better protected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 16:07 ==

I have verified the bank details and they match.

 

[Haywain]

Are they really likely to get the information so incorrect? I mean I literally wasn’t stopped and I never purchased a child ticket?

Is it possible that one of your children was stopped?

 

[Appleturnover]

Is it possible that one of your children was stopped?

Perhaps my daughter who is 14, I purchase a lot of train tickets for her. It was just so odd that they have the wrong date and claimed they could see the ticket purchase for that day but I couldn’t see the purchase. Ultimately they found gaps in our history all unintentional and I have settled the fee owing, I suspect between myself and my son we have just not renewed our railcard in time a complete oversight and not one I am proud of. I will be sure to keep tabs on our railcards and no exactly when they run out to be sure this never happens again.

Thank you all for your comments, I was so worried it was a scam and I only wanted to do the right thing by complying with their requests as there was no intent as all. Poor show that they don’t have correct information though doesn’t look good on them!