Possibly incorrect advice on VT's Facebook page?

[voyagerdude220]

Hi all,

I've this afternoon come across of post on the public Virgin Trains Facebook page. A gentleman was complaining that somebody they know had their advance Preston to Coventry single forcibly taken off them and sold a brand new ticket, after they missed their train from Preston, because of a late running connecting train, which they had given themselves plenty of time to change from. (Definitely more than the official minimum allowance needed to change trains at Preston)

The person from Virgin Trains asked the complainant if the passenger had got a ticket covering the entire journey from a to b via Preston, or separate tickets. (i.e. connecting station to Preston then the Advance Single from Preston to Coventry)

The complainant confirmed the passenger held separate tickets and Virgin Trains said that the Station Staff at Preston were therefore right to declare the original ticket as invalid, despite the delay to the connecting train.

Surely this is incorrect? I always believed that as long as you allow officially enough time to change trains, you would be covered in the event of you hold Advance tickets/missing your booked train?

 

[yorkie]

Surely this is incorrect?

Very much so.

Full refund & apology from VT required...

 

[voyagerdude220]

Very much so.

Full refund & apology from VT required...

I thought as much. Just wanted to double check.

Unfortunately I don't know the people concerned, otherwise I'd be helping them get things sorted with VT.

Thanks for confirming, Yorkie.

 

[Merseysider]

Post is here and the OP has been advised to contact the forum.

Can't say it surprises me that this has happened with Virgin of all companies.

 

[furlong]

I saw a Virgin Trains "Choosing your ticket" poster at Coventry station recently giving similar incorrect information:

If, for any reason, you are not on the train specified on your ticket when it departs, your ticket will no longer be valid and you will need to purchase a completely new ticket for travel.

Breach of the consumer regulations for the ORR to deal with?

 

[bb21]

I seriously doubt staff would tear up the ticket, or putting it into the bin without the customer's consent.

But it doesn't stop the advice given being incorrect.

 

[AlterEgo]

Advice is definitely incorrect. Sad to see some VT staff still live inside a bubble sealed off from the rest of the industry (and common sense!).

 

[furlong]

after they missed their train from Preston, because of a late running connecting train, which they had given themselves plenty of time to change from.

Just quote the Conditions of Travel back at them:

9.4 Notwithstanding Condition 9.2 (b) above, if you are using an advance Ticket and you miss your booked train because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom[sic] you were booked without penalty.

 

[clough99]

Hi This is Dave the original poster on Facebook

First off big thanks to voyagerdude220 for showing an interest and pointing us to this forum.

I'll make one correction - the ticket wasn't torn up but was put in the bin instead of being returned.

The Journey our son was making today was a return on a coventry to preston return. the departure time from Preston was scheduled at 13:17 today
We live in Leyland and sometimes it is more convinent to travel to Preston by car , others not so Yesterday we decided our son would get the train from Leyland.
As it was the next day travel there was no advantage in getting the Leyland to Preston Ticket until the day of travel.
My Wife gave our son a lift to Leyland station with the intention of getting the 12:52 which would have got him in at 12:57 - plenty of time.
They got to Leyland station at about 12:35 to Purchase a ticket. There was a delay posted on the next train with it now scheduled to arrive at 13:06 . My son did ask the station staff if he would be ok to make his connection which he was assured yes there would be enough time at Preston to make the connection so he bought his ticket. The staff also said if there was an Issue with connecting at Preston customer serives there would sort him out.
The train from Leyland got further delayed as we now know arriving in Preston 1 minute after the Virgin train departed.

Our son then did what he thought was right and went to the customer services / ticket desk at Preston. Here he was told the only solution was to purchase a new ticket. He called me and I thought that this wasn't right and advised him to talk to other virgin staff on the platforms. These staff just guided him back to the ticket office. Here his tickets were looked at then thrown in the bin . and he was charged the Full 50.50 for a single adult fare. He then called me back to tell me that he'd been made to pay a full single fare and felt aggrieved( it was in this conversation where we have confused the ticket getting torn up ). Shocked I went online to find what the standard price of a ticket was and found that they had failed to apply the 16-25 railcard discount that was on the original ticket - To me a duty of care of the ticketing staff would have been to note the original was a 16-25 ticket . I called my son back and told him to get them to change his ticket to the 16-25 discount and to speak to a manager as I felt he still should not have been charged at all. And to get the original tickets back as evidence.
They did refund the ticket down to the 33.35 price for a 16-25 railcard and handed back the tickets taken off him earlier . Though apparently they were reluctant to give these back as they "were no longer valid"
They did give him a complaint form for Virgin and Northern Rail but said as the first train wasn't virgin and the tickets were not bought as combined it was Virgins right to make him buy a new ticket. In total he spoke with 4 different members of staff here, one of whom was the team leader and they all followed the same mantra.

Obviously he could do no more and boarded the next train - I went on to raise complaints on social media and through Virgins own website.

since I started writing this post Virgin's FB team have been PM'g my wife. The upshot of which is they now admit they were wrong in charging my son for the additional ticket. So we have a result and we will see how they now process the formal complaint

So Thank you very much voyagerdude220 and others who responded. It's nice to know there are other people out there who care. Fortunately my son did have enough ( but not much more ) money in the bank to buy the ticket I dread to think though of how many times this has happened to people with no immediate funds left.

Thnks Dave

 

[roversfan2001]

They were totally in the wrong, it really gets my goat when railway ticketing staff make basic errors like this, it's good to know you're getting the matter resolved.

Unfortunately it's the latest (probably not even that now) in a long list of errors made by Virgin staff at Preston.

 

[Merseysider]

Ensure that recompense is issued as money (eg cheque, online payment) rather than travel vouchers.

I personally would push for a little extra (but don't go over the top) in the way of compensation due to the sheer number of times Virgin had the chance to set things straight throughout the day and failed, only doing so when forced to.

 

[Be3G]

Fortunately my son did have enough ( but not much more ) money in the bank to buy the ticket I dread to think though of how many times this has happened to people with no immediate funds left.

The railways do have a way of helping slightly with this: there is a process called SILK (Stranded Individual Location Known) whereby person A who is at station B can pay for a train ticket for person C who is stranded at station D, if both stations have staffed ticket offices.

Only anytime tickets can be purchased this way so it is expensive, but it's worth knowing the service exists anyway (putting aside for a moment the fact that your son shouldn't have had to pay for another ticket).

 

[furlong]

There's nothing lost in asking for an assurance that the company will take measures to ensure a similar situation does not arise again.

The number of opportunities the company missed to get this right and the number of staff involved also suggests an underlying systemic problem here that you might wish to report to the DfT (as a breach of the franchise terms requiring it to accept the ticket) and/or the ORR (as a possible, even criminal, breach of the Consumer Regulations).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The railways do have a way of helping slightly with this: there is a process called SILK (Stranded Individual Location Known) whereby person A who is at station B can pay for a train ticket for person C who is stranded at station D, if both stations have staffed ticket offices.

Only anytime tickets can be purchased this way so it is expensive, but it's worth knowing the service exists anyway (putting aside for a moment the fact that your son shouldn't have had to pay for another ticket).

There is also a £10 fee for SILK, so buying online for the other person to collect is usually a better option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately it's the latest (probably not even that now) in a long list of errors made by Virgin staff at Preston.

Quite. I still haven't forgiven them for the utterly incompetent handling of people who were stranded due to flooding around Carlisle last year.

They seem to have rather a reputation for not having a clue there for some reason I really don't understand.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Hi This is Dave the original poster on Facebook

First off big thanks to voyagerdude220 for showing an interest and pointing us to this forum.

I'll make one correction - the ticket wasn't torn up but was put in the bin instead of being returned.

The Journey our son was making today was a return on a coventry to preston return. the departure time from Preston was scheduled at 13:17 today
We live in Leyland and sometimes it is more convinent to travel to Preston by car , others not so Yesterday we decided our son would get the train from Leyland.
As it was the next day travel there was no advantage in getting the Leyland to Preston Ticket until the day of travel.
My Wife gave our son a lift to Leyland station with the intention of getting the 12:52 which would have got him in at 12:57 - plenty of time.
They got to Leyland station at about 12:35 to Purchase a ticket. There was a delay posted on the next train with it now scheduled to arrive at 13:06 . My son did ask the station staff if he would be ok to make his connection which he was assured yes there would be enough time at Preston to make the connection so he bought his ticket. The staff also said if there was an Issue with connecting at Preston customer serives there would sort him out.
The train from Leyland got further delayed as we now know arriving in Preston 1 minute after the Virgin train departed.

Our son then did what he thought was right and went to the customer services / ticket desk at Preston. Here he was told the only solution was to purchase a new ticket. He called me and I thought that this wasn't right and advised him to talk to other virgin staff on the platforms. These staff just guided him back to the ticket office. Here his tickets were looked at then thrown in the bin . and he was charged the Full 50.50 for a single adult fare. He then called me back to tell me that he'd been made to pay a full single fare and felt aggrieved( it was in this conversation where we have confused the ticket getting torn up ). Shocked I went online to find what the standard price of a ticket was and found that they had failed to apply the 16-25 railcard discount that was on the original ticket - To me a duty of care of the ticketing staff would have been to note the original was a 16-25 ticket . I called my son back and told him to get them to change his ticket to the 16-25 discount and to speak to a manager as I felt he still should not have been charged at all. And to get the original tickets back as evidence.
They did refund the ticket down to the 33.35 price for a 16-25 railcard and handed back the tickets taken off him earlier . Though apparently they were reluctant to give these back as they "were no longer valid"
They did give him a complaint form for Virgin and Northern Rail but said as the first train wasn't virgin and the tickets were not bought as combined it was Virgins right to make him buy a new ticket. In total he spoke with 4 different members of staff here, one of whom was the team leader and they all followed the same mantra.

Obviously he could do no more and boarded the next train - I went on to raise complaints on social media and through Virgins own website.

since I started writing this post Virgin's FB team have been PM'g my wife. The upshot of which is they now admit they were wrong in charging my son for the additional ticket. So we have a result and we will see how they now process the formal complaint

So Thank you very much voyagerdude220 and others who responded. It's nice to know there are other people out there who care. Fortunately my son did have enough ( but not much more ) money in the bank to buy the ticket I dread to think though of how many times this has happened to people with no immediate funds left.

Thnks Dave

Hi "Clough99",

Thank you very much for letting us all know how you got on in regards to sorting the incorrectly charged fare out with VT.

I'm very happy to have been of partial assistance.

 

[bb21]

The claim of the ticket being "torn up" was made by yourself on Virgin's facebook page, so you really need to be careful with what allegations are made. Something like that instantly rang alarm bells in my head as virtually no railway staff would do that.

Obviously I'm glad that your son is now all sorted, however your story now makes me a little uneasy. If when your son bought a ticket for the first leg he was already aware of the delay, then strictly speaking the connection does not have to be honoured. If he did not have a ticket/tickets for the whole journey then the connection does not have to be honoured, as there was no valid connection when the train was already 20 minutes late. If Virgin really want to dig their heels in, the time the ticket was issued would have revealed the full picture. Now normally train companies wouldn't go to this length as most railway staff would fare prefer to get customers home as quickly as possible when there were disruptions, however in light of this further detail about the case, I am no longer sure that your case is as watertight as I initially thought.

For this reason I would recommend that next time make sure that you buy a ticket in advance for the Leyland - Preston leg, so that you have a contract for conveyance for the whole distance from Leyland to the destination.

 

[TrainfanBen]

There is also a £10 fee for SILK, so buying online for the other person to collect is usually a better option.

But how does one collect the ticket without the original payment method (Usually the debit or credit card it was booked on)?

 

[bb21]

But how does one collect the ticket without the original payment method (Usually the debit or credit card it was booked on)?

Buy some online vouchers and use those to purchase tickets. The end result is that no payment card is required, just any card to bypass that stage.

 

[TUC]

The claim of the ticket being "torn up" was made by yourself on Virgin's facebook page, so you really need to be careful with what allegations are made. Something like that instantly rang alarm bells in my head as virtually no railway staff would do that.

Not that putting the ticket in the bin was any more right for the staff member to do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Obviously I'm glad that your son is now all sorted, however your story now makes me a little uneasy. If when your son bought a ticket for the first leg he was already aware of the delay, then strictly speaking the connection does not have to be honoured. If he did not have a ticket/tickets for the whole journey then the connection does not have to be honoured, as there was no valid connection when the train was already 20 minutes late.

Although the fact Leyland station staff apparently advised that the connection would still be OK is an important factor to bear in mind.

 

[bb21]

Not that putting the ticket in the bin was any more right for the staff member to do.

I didn't excuse that behaviour, although that also sounds unlikely without the customer's consent, but that is beyond the point of whether the connection was valid and whether the customer had a contract for conveyance from Leyland to Coventry or Preston to Coventry, which were the key facts of the case.

Although the fact Leyland station staff apparently advised that the connection would still be OK is an important factor to bear in mind.

No, I don't believe it is.

It may well be that the member of staff made a mistake, or that it was his genuine belief. It does not change the facts of the case regarding whether the customer was aware of the delay when he purchased the ticket for the leg Leyland - Preston, which was a vital consideration.

 

[furlong]

That the train was advertised and he arrived with sufficient time to purchase the ticket for the connection, and did so, should be sufficient. (Compare the situation with one in which the passenger missed the connection because of a scheduled delay caused by advertised engineering work of which he was unaware because he had relied on a printed timetable that didn't show it.)

 

[bb21]

I don't think it does.

There was no contract for the first part of the journey until the ticket was purchased (with the passenger aware of the delay), and this is not even a case of implied contract.

I won't say you are wrong but I am not convinced.

 

[sheff1]

There was no contract for the first part of the journey until the ticket was purchased (with the passenger aware of the delay), and this is not even a case of implied contract.

Except that the booking clerk at Leyland told him the connection would still be made and sold him a ticket on that basis.

 

[TUC]

No, I don't believe it is.

It may well be that the member of staff made a mistake, or that it was his genuine belief. It does not change the facts of the case regarding whether the customer was aware of the delay when he purchased the ticket for the leg Leyland - Preston, which was a vital consideration.

If a passenger is advised by a member of station staff that a connection would still be capable of being made, I think it is entirely reasonable that any passenger would act on that advice, whether they were aware of the delay or not.

 

[IanD]

If when your son bought a ticket for the first leg he was already aware of the delay, then strictly speaking the connection does not have to be honoured. If he did not have a ticket/tickets for the whole journey then the connection does not have to be honoured, as there was no valid connection when the train was already 20 minutes late.

That was my initial thought too. But it wasn't clear if the 1306 quoted was the arrival time at Preston (so still a valid 11 minute connection) or the arrival time at Leyland potentially reducing the Preston connection to an invalid 6 minutes.

 

[bb21]

That was my initial thought too. But it wasn't clear if the 1306 quoted was the arrival time at Preston (so still a valid 11 minute connection) or the arrival time at Leyland potentially reducing the Preston connection to an invalid 6 minutes.

Was it? My bad. I thought that reduced the connection to 1 minute (ie. 1307 departure as opposed to 1317). If the connection were still valid then it was a moot point, although that has got me thinking about a few related issues.

Apologies.

 

[yorkie]

The customer was at Leyland station in plenty of time for the 1252 to Preston, which is due to arrive into Preston at 1257, which is certainly a valid connection into the 1317 to Euston.

(If it wasn't booked to be a valid connection, then I agree that it would have been a grey area)

 

[roversfan2001]

The customer was at Leyland station in plenty of time for the 1252 to Preston, which is due to arrive into Preston at 1257, which is certainly a valid connection into the 1317 to Euston.

(If it wasn't booked to be a valid connection, then I agree that it would have been a grey area)

I think the grey area comes from whether the passenger knew that the Leyland to Preston train was late enough to miss the train to Coventry.

 

[bb21]

Except that the booking clerk at Leyland told him the connection would still be made and sold him a ticket on that basis.

If a passenger is advised by a member of station staff that a connection would still be capable of being made, I think it is entirely reasonable that any passenger would act on that advice, whether they were aware of the delay or not.

I have already addressed this point. I don't think it changes the position the OP found himself in technically whatever the booking clerk said, as the facts were clear in respect of awareness of delays.

But that is all academic now, as IanD rightly pointed out, the connection was still valid, whereas I mistakenly thought it was reduced to a 1-minute connection at Preston.

I will however discuss this point with several people (some not on the forum) later this week as this is a scenario which I have not really thought about before and there are some important issues (including this one you two raised) that I would like further discussion about with people more in the know.