Post GBR future of Gatwick Express

[43066]

Prompted by discussion in another thread. What do people feel is the likely future of the Gatwick Express brand in the “new world”?

On the one hand, it seems likely that the existing service will be retained, along with differential pricing. The current pricing is subject to an ongoing legal dispute regarding the legality of GTR charging different fares for different brands.

Several other forum members are very knowledgable about this so could perhaps confirm, but it seems likely this will no longer be relevant in the new world, as the operator will be GBR, and the underlying agreements and framework within which the service is provided will be completely different.

It seems to me that it should be relatively straightforward, if desired by the DfT, to continue to run Gatwick Express as a premium service, with different (higher) fares, as was historically the case prior to the amalgamation of Gatwick Express with GTR.

Alternatively, Gatwick has fewer premium business travellers than it used to, and the Gatex service has been “watered down” in recent years by extending it to Brighton, so is it possible than the brand could be scrapped entirely? If so, what might be the potential impact on future fare reform on the route?

Thoughts welcome.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that it needs to be acknowledged that it is now effectively the Victoria to Brighton express and should be integrated into Southern as such.

Gatwick Express as a concept belongs in the era of "Duty Free" the sitcom and "Guantanamera".

 

[43066]

I think that it needs to be acknowledged that it is now effectively the Victoria to Brighton express and should be integrated into Southern as such.

Gatwick Express as a concept belongs in the era of "Duty Free" the sitcom and "Guantanamera".

I’m inclined to agree - although it could conceivably continue along the lines of Heathrow Express. Much harder now that it extends to Brighton and is less segregated - it’s more like EMR’s “Luton Airport Express”, which extends to Corby .

The bigger question is whether the DfT be willing to move away from the premium fare structure?

 

[yorksrob]

I’m inclined to agree - although it could conceivably continue along the lines of Heathrow Express. Much harder now that it extends to Brighton and is less segregated - it’s more like EMR’s “Luton Airport Express”, which extends to Corby .

The bigger question is whether the DfT be willing to move away from the premium fare structure?

Well, that's the million dollar question !

I suppose at least we're not hit with the premium fare when we're going further afield on it, however it does seem like a bit of an anachronism for all those airport passengers slumming it with the rest of us.

 

[Hadders]

The airport will want Gatwick Express branding retained.

 

[yorksrob]

The airport isn't even publicly owned anymore, so why should they get to dictate how the train service is run ?

 

[Hadders]

The airport isn't even publicly owned anymore, so why should they get to dictate how the train service is run ?

Airport will tell the DfT that's what they need.

From a tourist point of view dedicated airport services are important. This doesn't really happen for Gatwick any longer with services continuing to Brighton, but passengers thinking that getting to the London is easy on the Gatwick Express is important.

 

[yorksrob]

Airport will tell the DfT that's what they need.

From a tourist point of view dedicated airport services are important. This doesn't really happen for Gatwick any longer with services continuing to Brighton, but passengers thinking that getting to the London is easy on the Gatwick Express is important.

Perhaps just the "Express" branding would help to promote easy travel to London from the airport, whilst being less confusing for Brighton passengers.

 

[RS465]

Airport will tell the DfT that's what they need.

From a tourist point of view dedicated airport services are important. This doesn't really happen for Gatwick any longer with services continuing to Brighton, but passengers thinking that getting to the London is easy on the Gatwick Express is important.

Do tourists need dedicated airport services to help them navigate? I’d assume most can navigate using their phone just fine.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I just want them to scrap the premium fares to Brighton.

If not, make it a truly premium service with better seating and limited catering to make the higher fares to Brighton worth it. Call it Southern Express or something. Southern Belle? Has that been done before?

Or, would it be possible to have the Reigate service split at Redhill so us South West Londoners can get our strict Clapham to Brighton service back that we’ve enjoyed since about 1860? Please?

 

[Hadders]

Do tourists need dedicated airport services to help them navigate? I’d assume most can navigate using their phone just fine.

Yes. Not everyone is a railway expert like us.

As an example, a good friend of mine regularly flies from Gatwick. He always gets the Gatwick Express because in his mind it’s the fastest way to the airport. Despite my protestations on timings and price he won’t budge.

It’s the same when he flies from Heathrow. He won’t consider the Elizabeth Line or Piccadilly Line.

 

[JonathanH]

I just want them to scrap the premium fares to Brighton.

Which premium fares to Brighton? The 'Thameslink only' ones are discounted (and were meant to have been withdrawn by now). Brighton is apparently in the ultimate scope of Project Oval.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Which premium fares to Brighton? The 'Thameslink only' ones are discounted (and were meant to have been withdrawn by now). Brighton is apparently in the ultimate scope of Project Oval.

So they’re not premium? Thameslink is just artificially cheap? Why?

 

[cle]

Airport will tell the DfT that's what they need.

From a tourist point of view dedicated airport services are important. This doesn't really happen for Gatwick any longer with services continuing to Brighton, but passengers thinking that getting to the London is easy on the Gatwick Express is important.

Tourists can only use a train if it has the airport name and the word ‘Express’ ?

Tell that to the many more who use regular trains out of Schiphol - which is the most comparable station to Gatwick.

Give people some credit - they can research, follow signs, board trains that say “London X”, look at maps. It’s really not that hard. And our language is the most spoken by global tourists too.

The current set up is detrimental to our network. This route is full and we have empty trains taking up paths. And Victoria frequency if pooled could be incredibly high - and mitigate Croydon crowding with a few more tph if spread a few mins apart. The 00/15/30/45 would no longer be essential for idiot proofing

 

[yorksrob]

Yes. Not everyone is a railway expert like us.

As an example, a good friend of mine regularly flies from Gatwick. He always gets the Gatwick Express because in his mind it’s the fastest way to the airport. Despite my protestations on timings and price he won’t budge.

It’s the same when he flies from Heathrow. He won’t consider the Elizabeth Line or Piccadilly Line.

But if the express wasn't there, he'd presumably just get a train to London ?

 

[Belperpete]

Gatwick isn't the only example of premium pricing for an express service. Perhaps the best/worst case has to be the WCML, where Avanti charge premium fares compared to LNW. I can't see this changing once both brands come under GBR. So why should GATEX be any different?

 

[weeklycommuter]

High capacity express service connecting Brighton, Gatwick Airport, Clapham Junction and London Victoria. Standard class only and the same fares as all other train services connecting the same stations like the Stansted Express which connects London Liverpool Street, Tottenham Hale, Harlow Town, Bishops Stortford and Stansted Airport. The Gatwick Express service needs to call additionally at Clapham Junction as this is the station for interchange with South Western Railway services used by passengers on the South Western Railway network to travel to and from Gatwick Airport. The service could continue to have the Gatwick Express brand or it could just be branded Great British Railways or Southern if that brand continues to be used, it does not really matter. The important issues are the fares, the capacity and the stations served.

 

[Belperpete]

High capacity express service connecting Brighton, Gatwick Airport, Clapham Junction and London Victoria. Standard class only and the same fares as all other train services connecting the same stations like the Stansted Express which connects London Liverpool Street, Tottenham Hale, Harlow Town, Bishops Stortford and Stansted Airport.

Should the same be done to Avanti express services on the WCML?

 

[weeklycommuter]

Should the same be done to Avanti express services on the WCML?

Yes and for the High Speed Two services that replace them.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It should be scrapped as it eats up pathways being non stop to Gatwick and made into a half hourly fast service to Brighton to match the rest of the routes stopping pattern. Thus making it no different to Stansted Express.

 

[swt_passenger]

So they’re not premium? Thameslink is just artificially cheap? Why?

Because the earlier separate Thameslink operator, ie FCC, was not the defined main operator of the London to Brighton route, so as a separate TOC they were able to offer Thameslink fares to undercut the actual main operator of the route, Southern.

The change to the TSGN combined franchise should have merged the any permitted and the ’Thameslink only’ fares, it was stated quite openly in the TSGN franchise ITT and specification in 2013/14. Thameslink users apparently claimed this would cause financial hardship, especially for season holders, and it never happened.

 

[NorthLondoner]

I'm aware this is slightly off, though was there a reason why GTR decided to retain the Gatwick Express service rather than the former Southern Brighton service? Surely would've it made more sense to scrap the Gatwick Express and retain the Southern Brighton to Victoria service.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm aware this is slightly off, though was there a reason why GTR decided to retain the Gatwick Express service rather than the former Southern Brighton service?

There was a substantial consultation on the future of Gatwick Express when the Southern and Gatwick Express franchises were merged around 2010.

It was recognised in the peaks that the Gatwick Express paths weren't being well used. Options were considered as to how to use then better, including stopping it more frequently between Gatwick and London, or running it through to Brighton. Brighton was the compromise selected, and for a while there were six peak time Gatwick Express services in the peak flow direction extended through to Brighton.

Later, it was deemed that Gatwick Express running to Brighton every half hour was a way of allowing Arun Valley services to run on the Quarry Line avoiding Redhill in the former Brighton Express path, with Redhill served from Victoria instead by Reigate / Tonbridge services.

There are a number of interested parties who value the Gatwick Express service, including the Airport, even if people on this forum don't.

Surely would've it made more sense to scrap the Gatwick Express and retain the Southern Brighton to Victoria service.

Why? The Brighton Express services carried fresh air at times as well.

More recently, in the 2018 timetable there was a Southern service from Victoria to Brighton, but running separate Coastway services to the two sides was a long desired change that now uses the path previously used for this service.

I think that a further Victoria to Brighton service is largely dependent on the remodelling work at Croydon ever happening, which now seems unlikely. It might be noted that there are already ten off-peak trains an hour through Haywards Heath, two flat junctions at Wivelsfield and Preston Park, and seven intermediate stations between Gatwick Airport and Brighton to serve.

 

[yorksrob]

Having both Gatwick Airport and Brighton served by the same express should result in busy services throughout the day.

 

[TrenHotel]

I caught a Gatwick Express from Brighton to Gatwick on Wednesday lunchtime - full of stern warnings about "Southern only" and "Thameslink only" tickets not being valid, even though the driver announced it as "the Sou-- er, Gatwick Express service to London Victoria". Just daft, and even had me questioning whether my KeyGo card would be valid.

 

[redreni]

Whatever the airport thinks, I can't help but suspect it does the reputation of the UK no good at all when you sell someone a premium-priced ticket on a dedicated "express" train service with flash branding, and then when they get on the train and look out of the window, it becomes readily apparent that the premium express service is scarecely any different or any quicker than the normal trains.

On dedicated airport links more generally, I just don't believe people choose destinations to fly to based on how good the transport link to the city centre is at the other end. It is conceivable, if there is a choice between arriving at different airports serving the same city, that people will research and take into account the ease of getting from the airport into the city before deciding which flight to book and which airport to use, but the convenience of the flight times and the cost of the flights will be more important considerations. Only in marginal cases will the quality of the transport links make a difference. Most passengers just fly to any airport serving the city they want to go to. Anybody who does check to see what the journey from the airport to the city is like, will surely just go on WikiTravel or TripAdvisor and find out the journey times, frequency of service and (maybe) fares?

If there's any significant number of people who will fly into Gatwick now, but would switch to a different airport if the train service was called something else and/or called additionally at Clapham Junction, I'd like to see the evidence for that.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I'd like to see the evidence for that.

Consider my reply as evidence.

 

[johntea]

On a similar note regarding Airport train branding my mother is going to the USA next week and mentioned she had booked a taxi to Leeds station to catch the Manchester Airport service

"But we have an hourly service to Manchester Piccadilly at the local station 10 minutes down the road" I said to her

"I know but that is a pain as I'll have to change train at Manchester Piccadilly!"

"But you'll still have to drag all your luggage through Leeds station anyway..."

I didn't end up winning the argument of course

 

[Horizon22]

Gatwick isn't the only example of premium pricing for an express service. Perhaps the best/worst case has to be the WCML, where Avanti charge premium fares compared to LNW. I can't see this changing once both brands come under GBR. So why should GATEX be any different?

I mean Avanti is a lot quicker than WMR. The same is not true of Southern versus GatEx which is a few minutes different in reality. Thameslink isn't quite comparable due to being a different terminus but is still not much slower.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Consider my reply as evidence.

Why?