Post World War 2 - peoples views of Germany?

[AM9]

Some did live through the after-effects of the war though. My best friend live in one of a group of prefabs sited in a gap between houses in a long row which were close to a factory that had been converted for war-work; there were still other gaps which just had the remains of foundations or parts of walls where we used to play. Some houses still had air-raid shelters in the back garden where we would go in bad weather. There were also the people who still had signs of war wounds; my father had a burn down the side of one leg caused by an ejected shell casing, to which he applied a cream every day to ease the pain, but there were worse, much worse. Parents telling you not to stare at someone with a facial or limb disfigurement caused by enemy action. We knew there had been a war, and we knew some of the impact it had had. Much may depend on where you were; I could see a factory that made ship's turbines out of my bedroom window and passed a former munitions factory on my way to school. I would have thought that for those brought up in Hull, the East End of London, Coventry, Liverpool, Plymouth and similar places, it was even more obvious.

mods note - split from this thread

I was preschool and primary school in the '50 and living in SW Essex, there were plenty of visual reminders of the war years, both in the destruction of urban properties, and the continuance of food rationing. My parents generation would repeatedly say,: "the only good German is a dead German," and had a sometimes quite jaundiced view of the French. The UK seemed to still bathe in the glory of it's imperial years, despite announcing that a country x or y was pressing for independence at every opportunity. Aparrently we were omnipotent.

 

[nw1]

I was preschool and primary school in the '50 and living in SW Essex, there was plenty of visual reminders of the war years, both in the destruction of urban properties, and the continuance of food rationing. My parents generation would repeatedly say,: "the only good German is a dead German," and had a sometimes quite jaundiced view of the French. The UK seemed to still bathe in the glory of it's imperial years, despite announcing that a country x or y was pressing for independence at every opportunity. Aparrently we were omnipotent.

Even my dad (born in the 40s) seemed to have a distinct anti-continental prejudice and something of a belief that the British were better than other nationalities.

 

[75A]

I was preschool and primary school in the '50 and living in SW Essex, there was plenty of visual reminders of the war years, both in the destruction of urban properties, and the continuance of food rationing. My parents generation would repeatedly say,: "the only good German is a dead German," and had a sometimes quite jaundiced view of the French. The UK seemed to still bathe in the glory of it's imperial years, despite announcing that a country x or y was pressing for independence at every opportunity. Aparrently we were omnipotent.

I was a few years after you, born and brought up in Sussex and had the same experiences. My late Mother born in 1933 would call the French collabarators, and on her only visit to Germany got out of the car at the border and spat on the ground.

 

[nw1]

I was a few years after you, born and brought up in Sussex and had the same experiences. My late Mother born in 1933 would call the French collabarators, and on her only visit to Germany got out of the car at the border and spat on the ground.

This kind of xenophobia is quite shocking though. It's utterly unacceptable to display such behaviour towards an entire nation of people due to bad things the leaders of that nation did in the past.

 

[AM9]

This kind of xenophobia is quite shocking though. It's utterly unacceptable to display such behaviour towards an entire nation of people due to bad things the leaders of that nation did in the past.

Viewed through 2024 eyes you are correct, viewed through eyes in the years immediately after the war, you need to consider the context, if you were around then! It's the dinosaurs that still think like that who should be censured.

 

[Senex]

I was preschool and primary school in the '50 and living in SW Essex, there was plenty of visual reminders of the war years, both in the destruction of urban properties, and the continuance of food rationing. My parents generation would repeatedly say,: "the only good German is a dead German," and had a sometimes quite jaundiced view of the French. The UK seemed to still bathe in the glory of it's imperial years, despite announcing that a country x or y was pressing for independence at every opportunity. Aparrently we were omnipotent.

Then I must be just a few years older than you, but from the north-west of England. I too remember plenty of visual signs of the then-recent war (especially in Manchester and Liverpool) and continuing rationing, with the trip to a centre (which happened to be gthe local Conservative Club which also had the local siren on its roof) once a year to change ration-books and even sweets requiring "points" to be cut out. I agree sith you about a somewhat jaundiced view of the French, but perhaps surprisingly there did not seem to be huge hostility towards the Germans as a people, and German as a subject certainly flourished at my school, with about half the intake taking it. The depictions of Europe in the atlases we used at school would now be regarded as somewhat politically incorrect. However, it was not all "get on with our enemies". There was tremendous hostility towards the Japanese which seemed to take a very long time indeed to die down. Indeed I was somewhat surprised some fifty years after the end of the war seeing a member of a group I was in refuse to share a table in a dining-car with a Japanese couple who were with us.

 

[Falcon1200]

It's utterly unacceptable to display such behaviour towards an entire nation of people due to bad things the leaders of that nation did in the past.

Surely such strong feelings (at that time) are understandable in people who had suffered through the privations of WW2, had quite possibly lost family members through military service or bombing, and became fully aware after the war of the utter evil and depravity committed, not just by Germany's leaders but by its population in general?

 

[3141]

Surely such strong feelings (at that time) are understandable in people who had suffered through the privations of WW2, had quite possibly lost family members through military service or bombing, and became fully aware after the war of the utter evil and depravity committed, not just by Germany's leaders but by its population in general?

"...By its population in general" may perhaps be too harsh, but there is little doubt that many Germans knew the sort of things that were going on, even if after the war they claimed not to. In a book "The Scourge of the Swastika" by Lord Russell of Liverpool, published in about 1955, he recounts reports that children in one town close to a large extermination camp would point out the van into which prisoners had been herded whose exhaust had been redirected into the interior, where they died of carbon monoxide poisoning. "There goes the death van," said the kids. Almost all Germans must have been aware of the attacks on Jews in newspapers, and have seen Jewish-owned businesses marked with the Star of David. But they didn't all participate in anti-Jewish and anti-left wing activities.

In the late 1990s the Japanese emperor paid a State Visit to Britain, and there was controversy because efforts were made by the Met. Police to block his view of protests by former prisoners of war as he was driven through London. A friend of mine (born in 1955) could not understand why they still held such strong anti-Japanese feelings. But if you had been a prisoner of war and subjected to gruesome mistreatment, and seen comrades killed horribly, you could not forget it.

So I think we must place views that today may seem extreme in the context of what people had experienced at the hands of the enemy during World War Two.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

"...By its population in general" may perhaps be too harsh, but there is little doubt that many Germans knew the sort of things that were going on, even if after the war they claimed not to.

I guess the question is, to what extent did people in Germany at the time approve of, or not object to, what was going on, vs. strongly object to it but were too scared to do anything about it. Doubtless there was a wide variety of attitudes across the population.

So I think we must place views that today may seem extreme in the context of what people had experienced at the hands of the enemy during World War Two.

Agreed. We can see a certain attitude as highly objectionable today, but I think it's important not to hold people from times past to current standards, without acknowledging that those people would have had very different upbringings/cultures/histories/life experiences/etc. and their attitudes may well have reflected the norms of the times. In particular, today, thanks to the Internet, cheap foreign travel, tv, and mass migration, we have a huge exposure to different cultures and nationalities which informs our attitudes to people from other countries: That simply didn't exist to people 60-70 years ago.

Another example is that back in the 1970s my German (language) teacher at school was actually French, and I recall her once telling us how her parents/grandparents basically would not talk to Germans. That seems shocking today, but in the context of what people in France had to live through under occupation during the war, seems more understandable.

 

[The Ham]

"...By its population in general" may perhaps be too harsh, but there is little doubt that many Germans knew the sort of things that were going on, even if after the war they claimed not to. In a book "The Scourge of the Swastika" by Lord Russell of Liverpool, published in about 1955, he recounts reports that children in one town close to a large extermination camp would point out the van into which prisoners had been herded whose exhaust had been redirected into the interior, where they died of carbon monoxide poisoning. "There goes the death van," said the kids. Almost all Germans must have been aware of the attacks on Jews in newspapers, and have seen Jewish-owned businesses marked with the Star of David. But they didn't all participate in anti-Jewish and anti-left wing activities.

In the late 1990s the Japanese emperor paid a State Visit to Britain, and there was controversy because efforts were made by the Met. Police to block his view of protests by former prisoners of war as he was driven through London. A friend of mine (born in 1955) could not understand why they still held such strong anti-Japanese feelings. But if you had been a prisoner of war and subjected to gruesome mistreatment, and seen comrades killed horribly, you could not forget it.

So I think we must place views that today may seem extreme in the context of what people had experienced at the hands of the enemy during World War Two.

Sometimes children can be more perceptive on what's going on that the adults around them.

Also, just because one town knows of what's going on, it doesn't mean that it's more widely known (and there's a good chance there was a fair number working in the camp who lived locally, which changes the dynamics).

 

[Falcon1200]

The German population in general? Not sure about that.

The German population in general could not possibly have been unaware of the treatment meted out to Jews, and others, even before the war had started.

So I think we must place views that today may seem extreme in the context of what people had experienced at the hands of the enemy during World War Two.

Yes indeed, and of course the time to blame all Germans for what happened in their country before 1945 is long past.

 

[dgl]

Of course the rulers of Germany at the time were adept at convincing the public that all the countries ills were caused by certain specific groups of people and that things weren't going to get better with them still around, then when enough people have lapped it up and you get into power then you simply "remove" your opposition and there's no one to oppose you.

Naturally people like simple answers to problems and if you can communicate them in the right wway and you have no one to put an alternate theory out there you can get enough people to believe it that it becomes the general consensus.
Plus if people did know what was going on then it was in their interests to keep quiet in case they ended up subjected to the same treatment. The average person want's to just live their life without trouble and if that means going along with things they don't agree with then so be it.

Of course one thing we need to remember that we weren't fighting the Germans as such, we were fighting the ruling party. At the end of the day the Germans suffered more than we did.

 

[1D54]

Of course one thing we need to remember that we weren't fighting the Germans as such, we were fighting the ruling party. At the end of the day the Germans suffered more than we did.

People that gladly threw their hat in the ring and and gave unconditional support to the ruling party so in many ways they were complicit in what happened. They of course in many ways suffered more than we did but that was the price to pay, many looked at Hitler as a God like figure and by the time they realised what was going on it was far too late.

 

[RT4038]

Of course one thing we need to remember that we weren't fighting the Germans as such, we were fighting the ruling party. At the end of the day the Germans suffered more than we did.

Like the Boers were fighting the Conservative Party rather than the British in 1899? No - we were fighting the Germans. The narrative that the fight was with the Nazi Party has been propagated since the end of the Second World War in order to make the peace work and the German people able to hold their heads up. The Allies were considerably more magnanimous in victory than ever the Germans were or would have been.

The German population in general could not possibly have been unaware of the treatment meted out to Jews, and others, even before the war had started.



Yes indeed, and of course the time to blame all Germans for what happened in their country before 1945 is long past.

Of course they did. Not necessarily every detail. Collectively they turned their heads the other way, as it was in the interests (both economic, and for the order of their lives) to do so. No blame for current Germans - the German people have been forgiven, but it is important not to forget or cover up.

Of course the rulers of Germany at the time were adept at convincing the public that all the countries ills were caused by certain specific groups of people and that things weren't going to get better with them still around, then when enough people have lapped it up and you get into power then you simply "remove" your opposition and there's no one to oppose you.

And it fell on fertile minds. This was not unique to Germany either.

 

[DerekC]

Thought provoking though the last page or two is, I suggest that the complicity of the general German population in the Holocaust and the lessons for us today merits a separate thread. In this one there is a risk of the issues being used for domestic party political points-scoring, and that's the last thing we need.

 

[RT4038]

Thought provoking though the last page or two is, I suggest that the complicity of the general German population in the Holocaust and the lessons for us today merits a separate thread. In this one there is a risk of the issues being used for domestic party political points-scoring, and that's the last thing we need.

Agree!

 

[Typhoon]

I guess the question is, to what extent did people in Germany at the time approve of, or not object to, what was going on, vs. strongly object to it but were too scared to do anything about it. Doubtless there was a wide variety of attitudes across the population.

An important point. Nazi thugs were not slow in roaming the streets and beating up those who might be not completely in tune with the Fuhrer's ideology (sometimes resulting in their death). It wasn't just Jews who were the targets of the regime - 'Romanies' and 'Slavs' were deemed racially inferior, 'homosexuals' were sent to concentration camps, 'trades unionists' and 'socialists' were imprisoned (and often tortured). I have put these in quotation marks because an accusation was frequently enough - no proof needed. Would I be speaking out - no, definitely not now, I've found out that my great-great-grandfather had the surname 'Jude'. It is far from a pure line - names like Chapman, Fletcher and Rule vouch for that but I don't suppose that would make much difference in '30s Germany. And, unlike today, when the name 'Navalny' is known throughout the world, these people just disappeared. I suspect the only reason why we have heard of Willy Brandt is that he got out!

 

[nw1]

Like the Boers were fighting the Conservative Party rather than the British in 1899? No - we were fighting the Germans. The narrative that the fight was with the Nazi Party has been propagated since the end of the Second World War in order to make the peace work and the German people able to hold their heads up. The Allies were considerably more magnanimous in victory than ever the Germans were or would have been.

I'm sorry, but I utterly disagree. Sorry to be so blunt. You absolutely cannot blame all citizens of a particular country for wrong-doing that its leaders committed.

That attitude is the primary reason why conflicts and wars propagate for so long.
There were, I am sure, many Germans in the war who hated what Hitler was doing. Why do you think they didn't speak up? Because they were frightened of being murdered by the State themselves, of course.

One may as well consider that 100% of Russians are bad people right now, because of Putin. Are all Russians bad people? Of course not. Should a Russian - any Russian - be deported from the UK just because of their nationality, even if they hate Putin with a passion? Of course not.

Or, are all Palestinians bad just because Hamas have committed terrorist atrocities? Of course not.

Or, if the UK government committed some atrocity, would you like it if all UK citizens shared the blame? Think of the boot on the other foot, so to speak.

 

[oldman]

A lot of people had to make hard choices; make a stand or go along with things. This could include enforcing Nazi laws as a judge, teaching primary school children the party line, or scheduling and signalling trains which were not carrying cattle in the cattle trucks. Some were more culpable than others.

Victor Klemperer's diaries (I will bear witness, To the bitter end) have examples of individual acts of decency to him as a Jewish German (although he preferred to think of himself as just a German). A shopkeeper slipping him an extra slice of meat, other workers doing his work when he had to do forced labour, the foreman who shouted at him but apologised afterwards - 'I've got to be seen to give you a hard time' - as well as friends who continued to help him. But to oppose was dangerous and few did.

 

[Typhoon]

A lot of people had to make hard choices; make a stand or go along with things. This could include enforcing Nazi laws as a judge, teaching primary school children the party line, or scheduling and signalling trains which were not carrying cattle in the cattle trucks. Some were more culpable than others.

Victor Klemperer's diaries (I will bear witness, To the bitter end) have examples of individual acts of decency to him as a Jewish German (although he preferred to think of himself as just a German). A shopkeeper slipping him an extra slice of meat, other workers doing his work when he had to do forced labour, the foreman who shouted at him but apologised afterwards - 'I've got to be seen to give you a hard time' - as well as friends who continued to help him. But to oppose was dangerous and few did.

A good point. And quite a bit was done anonymously - a note pushed under the door at the dead of night, items left on the doorstep. Not every one can be brave in these situations (after all, your life might be at stake and there would be consequences for your family), but some could be, and were, kind.

 

[RT4038]

Sorry to be so blunt. You absolutely cannot blame all citizens of a particular country for wrong-doing that its leaders committed.

You make it sound like a small band of German citizens somehow engaged in State capture whilst the vast majority were totally against it. A narrative propogated after the war to rehabilitate the German nation. I do not accept that at all. Most of the citizens participated or acquiesced. Yes, I am sure there was coercion, and in a country where conforming is so important, I expect the pressures were insidious and great. I am sure there was individual acts of kindness and mitigation too. However, that doesn't absolve them from a degree of responsibility and blame. It took a very large number of Germans (both active and in support) to keep the home population under control whilst attacking and occupying neighbouring countries, killing, torturing and pacifying their populations. This could not be done by leadership intimidation alone.

However, this is now in the past. No blame for current Germans - the German people have been forgiven, but it is important not to forget or cover up. If, for nothing else, to reduce the chances of it happening again.

 

[nw1]

You make it sound like a small band of German citizens somehow engaged in State capture whilst the vast majority were totally against it. A narrative propogated after the war to rehabilitate the German nation. I do not accept that at all. Most of the citizens participated or acquiesced. Yes, I am sure there was coercion, and in a country where conforming is so important, I expect the pressures were insidious and great. I am sure there was individual acts of kindness and mitigation too. However, that doesn't absolve them from a degree of responsibility and blame. It took a very large number of Germans (both active and in support) to keep the home population under control whilst attacking and occupying neighbouring countries, killing, torturing and pacifying their populations. This could not be done by leadership intimidation alone.

I still think that is a very narrow-minded attitude. There may not have been direct intimidation - but people would still have been frightened. Think of what you're doing by saying this. Tarring an entire nation with the same brush. Is this really acceptable?

I say again, what about Russians today? Should they all be seen as implicit supporters of Putin?

 

[RT4038]

I still think that is a very narrow-minded attitude. There may not have been direct intimidation - but people would still have been frightened. Think of what you're doing by saying this. Tarring an entire nation with the same brush. Is this really acceptable?

Yes. Pretty much the entire nation was involved.

I say again, what about Russians today? Should they all be seen as implicit supporters of Putin?

The scale of the war in Ukraine is not yet anything like the scale of the activities of Germany, both immediately before and during the Second World War.

 

[uglymonkey]

My dad served throughout WW2, and was one of the ones to help liberate Bergen -Belsen concentration camp. he said , after war he would shake hands with a german, but not Japanese.

My wife's grandfather, captured at Singapore and worked on the "death railway" always refused to buy any japanese merchandise after the war. When he was in hospital in Tooting dying of cancer, they had on his notes he was not to be seen or attended to by any memeber of staff with an asian appearance as he would attack them.

 

[oldman]

My wife's grandfather, captured at Singapore and worked on the "death railway" always refused to buy any japanese merchandise after the war

My uncle too worked on the Burma railway and died a few years after the war - 'after long suffering', according to his death notice. My mother 'hated the Japanese' for what happened to her younger brother; I don't suppose she met any Japanese people of her generation, but if she had, the 'what did you (or your male relatives) do during the war' question would surely have been in her mind.

It's important not to be anachronistic about these things.

 

[Gloster]

On of the most anti-German (and French, etc.) people I ever met was an old boy who wrote his only grand-child out of his will (not that he had much, most of it had gone on beer) because she chose to do German and French at university. Had he suffered the privations of war? Not really, as he had spent the whole war in a reserved occupation as an agricultural mechanic in and around Wiltshire. (How he got himself classified as reserved may have been a bit dodgy.)

I do remember my father mentioning that when he worked at ICI Wilton in the early 1960s they used to have some Japanese visitors. One of the clerks was also given something to keep him out of the way when they were on site because of the risk of him letting fly if he saw a Japanese.

 

[Trackman]

I had a friend who worked for EDF distribution (London) whose job it was to liaise with Siemens who were subcontracted to change electric meters and the such.
He told me I wouldn't believe the number of elderly people who won't let them in because of what happened in the war.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

To be fair I then edited my post to remove that, as I realise I went a bit far. For point of order, it was the attitude I was referring to, not you personally. But sorry, I deplore that kind of attitude, it's the same reason why I hate Brexit and all it stands for with a passion. You're never going to get a world living in peace and harmony if people blame entire nationalities for wrong-doings their leaders commit.

Without wanting to change the subject again after this thread has only just been split off, if you seriously think that Brexit was mainly about blaming entire nationalities for wrongs, then you really, seriously, completely misunderstand the reasons why so many people wanted Brexit.

 

[70014IronDuke]

This kind of xenophobia is quite shocking though. It's utterly unacceptable to display such behaviour towards an entire nation of people due to bad things the leaders of that nation did in the past.

An interesting thesis, but it begs certain questions.

But before I continue, let me say that I have fond memories of visits to Germany in the 1970s and 80s. I have (at least concsiously) nothing but good memories of many kindly experiences with German people.

But, were the bad things done by the leaders, as you presume? Have you taken the trouble to research just for just 30 minutes the stuff on the internet about the pogroms and actions against German Jews, Gays, Roma, mixed race people and German (yes, ethnic German) democratic opponents of Hitler?

In the vast majority of cases, these were not carried out by 'the leaders' but by 'ordinary' Germans, albeit with the authorities looking on and often aiding and abetting these abuses.

Around 33% (I forget the exact number) of 'ordinary' German voters made the Nazis the largest party in the Reichstarg in 1933 - a party that openly professed hate towards many segments of German society, including pacifists, gays, sincere Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Social Democrats etc etc and in the ensuing years thousands of 'ordinary' Germans carried out murder and torture of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of civilians in the occupied territories - meaning from France and Belgium to the western Soviet Union, former Yugoslavia and Italy.

I do not hold any of today's Germans responsible for these terrible crimes, but unless I have seen my child/spouse/parents murdered/bombed/starved to death by Germans and been able to personally overcome and personally forgive the German people for these crimes affecting myself, I don't think I have the right to criticise those who, most especially in the immediate years after the war, hated them en masse.

 

[75A]

This kind of xenophobia is quite shocking though. It's utterly unacceptable to display such behaviour towards an entire nation of people due to bad things the leaders of that nation did in the past.

So are people here to blame British Prime Ministers like Ted Heath for the murder of their friends and family by British soldiers during 'The Troubles'?