Post World War 2 - peoples views of Germany?

[nw1]

On the nuclear weapon issue (so replying to several people at once): I remain of the opinion that dropping nuclear bombs is an absolute wrong, I'm afraid, never acceptable in any circumstances. But I think we covered this in a previous thread around the time the Russian state invaded Ukraine. Think it'll just have to be a case of "agree to disagree" on this one.

Yes, lets not go there in this thread. Our trust of foreigners should go as far as their trust in us, described as Perfidious Albion.

Sorry, have to take you up on this (not Brexit, but the matter of foreigners in general). That does seem to be a rather controversial view; I know many foreigners, some very closely, and many of them I find more pleasant than many British people I also know. I certainly don't find that there is some lack of trust just because I am a different nationality to them, nor that there is some implicit mistrust between British and non-British people.

 

[spyinthesky]

Having lived in Germany for 13 years in the early 80’s. I met a wide variety of people who took part in WW2 including my father in-law.
I distinctly remember 2 people who had a strong dislike to me and it became apparent that one of them had been a member of The Gestapo. He was very quiet and always looked uncomfortable when German history was being talked about.
I always found that most people I met didn’t really know much about the final solution and this seemed geographical. Most were obviously aware that some of the local Jews had been detained and didn’t come back but there were others that remained and survived throughout.
I found the more rural areas of Western Germany knew more than the city dwellers particularly the heavy industrial areas around the Ruhr.
Over all I had a very pleasant social experience and felt very welcomed.

 

[RT4038]

Sorry, have to take you up on this (not Brexit, but the matter of foreigners in general). That does seem to be a rather controversial view; I know many foreigners, some very closely, and many of them I find more pleasant than many British people I also know. I certainly don't find that there is some lack of trust just because I am a different nationality to them, nor that there is some implicit mistrust between British and non-British people.

In my experience, people tend to be nationalistic (for various reasons), and therefore any trust placed needs to take that into account [ this will depend on what your level of dealing with them is]. On a personal level, whether you or me trusts somebody is an assessment that you carry out with your dealings with them [and this applies whether that is a British person or a Foreigner] . Trusting someone purely because they are British is foolish. I too know many foreigners, both on a personal and business level. I know people who I would trust and people that I wouldn't. I am not sure that pleasant necessarily implies trustworthy. I know plenty of unpleasant Foreigners, and British people too! We have no monopoly on pleasantness!

Now, on a country level, things are a little different. Countries act in their own interest, trustworthy or not Their level of trustworthiness may well be linked to their other interests with your country (or others, of course). When dealing with Foreigners on that level you need to be very well aware of the influences.

 

[Silenos]

You may well be right, but Germany stands out in having given half ( or more like the full )chance to them.

The people of Cork (let alone the people of Kenya) would disagree that Germany is the only place to have done so. My late mother-in-law remembered vividly having to hide under the bed as a little girl when the English thugs of the Black and Tans were rampaging through Cork City, with the full support of the British government.

I would never suggest that their has not been dark episodes in our Colonial past. However, both articles are stretching things more than a bit (as recognised in some of the comment), and there is little to compare with the horrors of the German regime before and during the second world war.

I’m afraid that’s a very typical English view. There are people in former colonies all over the world who would strongly disagree with it, which was exactly the point I was making.

 

[75A]

Then they wonder why they are so disliked.

 

[RT4038]

The people of Cork (let alone the people of Kenya) would disagree that Germany is the only place to have done so. My late mother-in-law remembered vividly having to hide under the bed as a little girl when the English thugs of the Black and Tans were rampaging through Cork City, with the full support of the British government.

I’m afraid that’s a very typical English view. There are people in former colonies all over the world who would strongly disagree with it, which was exactly the point I was making.

Well of course - one mans freedom fighter is anothers' terrorist. Brutal repression of armed insurrection is not that unusual. Rather went with the territory - atrocities on both sides and all that. Not sure that the treatment by the Germans of the Jewish (and other ethnicities that they did not like) population of Europe quite comes under that sort of category. But I fully accept that there is a dark side to our (and other European countries) Colonialism (and to buccaneering British (or other European national) individuals before that) and I do not shy away from that, although I do not feel any guilt personally.

Nevertheless, it is natural that the British (citizens of all of the nations were involved) will accentuate the positives and downplay the dark side, and those who suffered will do the opposite, especially when there is a whiff of reparations talk going around. Somewhere in between will be the 'truth', but good luck in getting to that and calculating a fair account balance at such a time distance. So much is subjective and conjecture - if the colonists had never come vs. what actually happened.

Then they wonder why they are so disliked.

I should imagine it is quite difficult to form an empire covering a quarter of the Earth's surface and not be by some. Not that any other country has ever managed it - by all accounts the Romans were not much liked in their colonial possessions either! However, the descendants of the Romans are not generally disliked now, so presumably the British will be rehabilitated eventually. Same goes with the Germans.

 

[75A]

It'll take a while in this part of the world that's for sure, a lot of the schools are still sectarian and throughout the year Loyalist & Unionist flags fly from lamposts.

 

[E27007]

On the nuclear weapon issue (so replying to several people at once): I remain of the opinion that dropping nuclear bombs is an absolute wrong, I'm afraid, never acceptable in any circumstances. But I think we covered this in a previous thread around the time the Russian state invaded Ukraine. Think it'll just have to be a case of "agree to disagree" on this one.

The atomic bomb Manhattan project began as a counter measure after lleading scientists such as Eiinstein warned of the capacity of Germany to dsvelop their atomic weapon.
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were uintended to be usedupon Germany, the surrender of Germany halted the use, the bombs dropped upon Japan brought tge War to a quick end, the alternative was posibly manymore years of fighting and loss of life on both sides

 

[43096]

I think this is what is called a luxury belief if you have been fortunate enough not to have bombs rained down upon you in the middle of the night. Xenophobia is the least of your worries when you face death and destruction on a nightly basis. Yes, it may not be logically correct to display hate for the peoples of a nation in response to a government's action but I would be very interested to see if you would keep such a cool head in the circumstances.

I’ll bet there are many Ukrainians with such a view of Russians now.

Must we really accept the population of Germany were completely helpless in the face of the nazis too?

You only have to see what has happened to opposition in Russia to have an idea of what opposition in Germany might have led to. It’s human instinct for the majority to take the path of least resistance in such a situation.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... I say it again - it doesn't mean all, or a majority of, Germans supported the Nazis. If 33% voted for the Nazis, 67% did not.

So once again, I contend that it was incorrect to blame "Germans" en masse for the monstrous atrocities carried out by Hitler and the Nazis.

As several others in this thread have tried to point out to you (rather well, in one way or another) it's easy to say nobody should blame any race for the atrocities inflicted on one's own by their leaders. But until you have had some thugs in state pay drag your wife off to a gas chamber, or had a 500kg bomb land on your home, or that of your close family, you are in no position to stand in judgement over those that do feel this way.

 

[nw1]

As several others in this thread have tried to point out to you (rather well, in one way or another) it's easy to say nobody should blame any race for the atrocities inflicted on one's own by their leaders. But until you have had some thugs in state pay drag your wife off to a gas chamber, or had a 500kg bomb land on your home, or that of your close family, you are in no position to stand in judgement over those that do feel this way.

I take your point and see where you're coming from; it would be better, though, if people blamed those directly responsible, rather than the race or nationality as a whole.

And before it comes up, I would be absolutely happy for Putin and his aides as well as Russian soldiers who commit atrocities to receive the death penalty at a war crimes tribunal; I have zero sympathy towards those who actually commit or order the atrocities.

 

[contrex]

I'm 71 (born 1952). I can recall boys marching about in the infants/early junior school playground chanting 'We won the war/In nineteen forty-four'. This would have been around 12 to 15 years later. Also as a very small child (3 to 5) I think I thought that 'germs' and 'Germans' were closely linked. Also small-format boy's comics (Commando Picture Library? Something like that) with characters with names like 'Battler Britton' who single handedly destroyed regiments of German tanks, large bunkers, etc. The enemy soldiers, in overcoats and coal-scuttle helmets (of course!) invariably shouted 'Aiee!' or 'Himmel!' as they flew through the air in the huge explosions. It never occurred to us that they died, only that they were 'biffed'. I cringe in shame when I think about all that now. My parents were in the RAF and WRAAF and lost plenty of military and civilian friends but I never heard them say a single bad word about the Germans. Or talk about the war much, come to that, except about bases they had been on. They loved a play called 'Chips With Everything' by Arnold Wesker that came on the TV. This was about the National Service era but they said it captured the RAF atmosphere.

My best friend when I was 15 had a relative who was a POW of the Japanese in the Far East and he never really recovered. 25 years later he was repeatedly arrested for attacking Japanese-looking tourists in London.

 

[AlterEgo]

I take your point and see where you're coming from; it would be better, though, if people blamed those directly responsible, rather than the race or nationality as a whole.

Modern Germans generally have no problem with accepting that Nazi Germany was a horrific wrong and the greatest crime any industrialised Western nation could commit. They are generally embarrassed and regretful of the past. Nazi Germany was not perpetrated by a small elite who cowed tens of millions of innocent people into mass murder; the cruelty was the point, and the Nazis had broad public support rooted in revanchism, societal and racial "hygiene", and a determination to undo the humiliation of WWI in which Germany was comprehensively defeated. The German nation rightfully takes ownership of those atrocities and it is only through doing so that it has been rehabilitated, to the point that it is now the height of indiscretion to mention the war to contemporary Germans.

It is precisely because Naziism was demonstrably popular that modern society is ever-watchful of the creep of fascism (perhaps, in fact, to its detriment, as many of our own instincts are only facing in one direction when it comes to the potential offrailing of a modern industrialised society). I don't think it's intellectually consistent to be eternally vigilant of the rising popularity of nationalism, authoritarianism, and racism in the UK, yet also claim that when countries do commit these despicable crimes that the population cannot be to blame.

 

[RT4038]

Modern Germans generally have no problem with accepting that Nazi Germany was a horrific wrong and the greatest crime any industrialised Western nation could commit. They are generally embarrassed and regretful of the past. Nazi Germany was not perpetrated by a small elite who cowed tens of millions of innocent people into mass murder; the cruelty was the point, and the Nazis had broad public support rooted in revanchism, societal and racial "hygiene", and a determination to undo the humiliation of WWI in which Germany was comprehensively defeated. The German nation rightfully takes ownership of those atrocities and it is only through doing so that it has been rehabilitated, to the point that it is now the height of indiscretion to mention the war to contemporary Germans.

It is precisely because Naziism was demonstrably popular that modern society is ever-watchful of the creep of fascism (perhaps, in fact, to its detriment, as many of our own instincts are only facing in one direction when it comes to the potential offrailing of a modern industrialised society). I don't think it's intellectually consistent to be eternally vigilant of the rising popularity of nationalism, authoritarianism, and racism in the UK any country, yet also claim that when countries do commit these despicable crimes that the population cannot be to blame.

Good post. Propose a small amendment.....