Potential for North of Glasgow/Edinburgh Service to Manchester

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route:oxford

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There are, from time to time, suggestions in the forums for addtional NoG or NoE services. Sadly most are impractical - or are responded to with the "traditional" angst ridden hand-wringing - "what about the rolling stock!".

I did notice a very small potential this morning though when trying to work out how to get a delegate from Edinburgh to Manchester Airport on a Sunday Morning, something that might just work...

The first direct service from Edinburgh to Manchester on a Sunday Morning is the 10:10 Transpennine Express.

The first service from Perth to reach Edinburgh for an onward journey south is the 09.27 (to Glasgow 09.03).

If the TPX unit, which if I'm correct arrived into Edinburgh at 19.39 on the Saturday evening and was stabled for the interim 15 hours, were to be sent North to Perth at 20.03(ish) and stabled at Perth instead, this would deliver an improved Saturday evening service from Edinburgh-Stirling-Perth and could potentially form an 08.30 service from Perth to Manchester via Stirling & Edinburgh on a Sunday morning.

All subject to signing, training, network rail and so forth...
 
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Blindtraveler

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There are, from time to time, suggestions in the forums for addtional NoG or NoE services. Sadly most are impractical - or are responded to with the "traditional" angst ridden hand-wringing - "what about the rolling stock!".

I did notice a very small potential this morning though when trying to work out how to get a delegate from Edinburgh to Manchester Airport on a Sunday Morning, something that might just work...

The first direct service from Edinburgh to Manchester on a Sunday Morning is the 10:10 Transpennine Express.

The first service from Perth to reach Edinburgh for an onward journey south is the 09.27 (to Glasgow 09.03).

If the TPX unit, which if I'm correct arrived into Edinburgh at 19.39 on the Saturday evening and was stabled for the interim 15 hours, were to be sent North to Perth at 20.03(ish) and stabled at Perth instead, this would deliver an improved Saturday evening service from Edinburgh-Stirling-Perth and could potentially form an 08.30 service from Perth to Manchester via Stirling & Edinburgh on a Sunday morning.

All subject to signing, training, network rail and so forth...


well I cant see there being Pathing issues at that time although my knoledge of finish times of saturday night engineering on that stretch is limmited.
The horror of riding in a 185 does nothing to encourage me to use such a working but as an Edinburi resident who often wishes earlier and faster Sunday AM runs home from work commitments up north were available I dare say I would. It might be more viable still if you started it back at dundee at 08:00 and then as above. Dundee means an Orcats raid and it would be as there are plenty shoppers, workers and students plus visiters who want a fast run to EDB on a Sunday morning, something not offered by train as the runs via Fife call all stops at that time. Crewing it may be interesting but I can definately see it working!
 
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Whilst most people would mention the rolling stock - my question would be 'What about the patronage'?

In no way having a go but you have only thought about this due to your unique situation and how many more people would really benefit from this sort of service without the need to change as they would do now?
 

Blindtraveler

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Whilst most people would mention the rolling stock - my question would be 'What about the patronage'?

In no way having a go but you have only thought about this due to your unique situation and how many more people would really benefit from this sort of service without the need to change as they would do now?


if started at dundee and calling Perth, Dunblane, Stirling, Falkirk and Haymarket a good number may use. A direct train to Carlisle has been missing from dundee for several years and from other stops many more. I think it could well be popular if decent advances were offered in competition with the very regular coaches prices from Dundee and Perth
 

route:oxford

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Whilst most people would mention the rolling stock - my question would be 'What about the patronage'?

In no way having a go but you have only thought about this due to your unique situation and how many more people would really benefit from this sort of service without the need to change as they would do now?
Don't forget that in Scotland, retailers aren't subject to the draconian Sunday shopping rules that are faced in England. Shops can (and do) open 24 hours as normal with high-street stores opening at 9am (or earlier) on a Sunday.
 

Failed Unit

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Didn't XC in the past used to do Aberdeen - Birmingham via Carlisle (not sure if it went via Manchester). I think I headed onwards to the South West. So sort of done before, not sure about passenger numbers. Problem is the doubling back at Edinburgh, the change at Haymarket will always be quicker.
 

scotsman

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Didn't XC in the past used to do Aberdeen - Birmingham via Carlisle (not sure if it went via Manchester). I think I headed onwards to the South West. So sort of done before, not sure about passenger numbers. Problem is the doubling back at Edinburgh, the change at Haymarket will always be quicker.
Used to be Aberdeen/Dundee to Brum/South West and it was always via Carlisle
 

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Used to be Aberdeen/Dundee to Brum/South West and it was always via Carlisle
So then we kind of get back to why they stopped it? Passenger numbers?

We all want lots of services that we, personally , think would be great but again if the numbers dont add up then it is not worth it for the TOC.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Looking at the larger settlements north of Edinburgh, would such a service be one that could be shown to have a positive benefit in the future area transportation submissions that would show that this service would be a definite aid to future regeneration of the areas concerned.
 

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Looking at the larger settlements north of Edinburgh, would such a service be one that could be shown to have a positive benefit in the future area transportation submissions that would show that this service would be a definite aid to future regeneration of the areas concerned.
Do they not have sufficient services already albeit they do have to change to get into England?

Im really not trying to have a difficult argument here but the OP was stating a 'very small potential' on a Sunday morning.
 

scotsman

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So then we kind of get back to why they stopped it? Passenger numbers?

We all want lots of services that we, personally , think would be great but again if the numbers dont add up then it is not worth it for the TOC.
Nope, it was because of the changes to the XC franchise - everything was routed via the East Coast - meaning that Edinburgh got 2/3 tph to Newcastle and 1/2 tp2h to Carlisle
 

route:oxford

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Do they not have sufficient services already albeit they do have to change to get into England?

Im really not trying to have a difficult argument here but the OP was stating a 'very small potential' on a Sunday morning.
Just to clarify. "Very small potential" being just one TPX service going North of Edinburgh on a Saturday and the return on a Sunday.

Only by experimenting with services on a small scale can you evidence a greater demand.
 

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however, if there's only one train in a blue moon, noone will use it
This really.

I agree without experimenting you will never know but really what else is there going north that could be done by making a connection? If its possible then why bother - extra train crews both ways is an awful lot of cost for a weekly service
 

Polarbear

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Before the WCML was electrified beyond Weaver Junction, there was at least one daytime train that operated between WCML stations & terminated at Perth. I also seem to recall that Perth used to have a separate sleeper service in days gone by.

Of course, after electrification to Glasgow, the Clansman operated between Inverness & London via Birmingham.

I suspect there is a demand for a direct service between Perth/Dundee & WCML stations, but that this isn't catered for these days as services to & from Glasgow from both north & south of that city generate more revenue. If there were a decent cross Glasgow link, things would be rather different I suspect.

Would there be scope for Virgin to run a Voyager from Birmingham beyond Glasgow to Perth (say in marginal time & stable overnight at Perth)?
 

34D

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If the TPX unit, which if I'm correct arrived into Edinburgh at 19.39 on the Saturday evening and was stabled for the interim 15 hours, were to be sent North to Perth at 20.03(ish) and stabled at Perth instead, this would deliver an improved Saturday evening service from Edinburgh-Stirling-Perth and could potentially form an 08.30 service from Perth to Manchester via Stirling & Edinburgh on a Sunday morning.

All subject to signing, training, network rail and so forth...
I love your idea. The best bit is that all that is needed is some cooperation between two FirstGroup TOCs. Ie the service be a through unit, and changing TOC and driver at Edinburgh. Would probably need to train a whole links' worth of scotrail drivers on 185s but that isn't a major thing (2 day conversion course I understand).

Then of course the unit would need gauge clearance for the route and the possible diversionary routes - in theory this will be needed anyway, as once North TransPennine electrification has been done then Scotrail is surely one candidate for the 185s.
 

ainsworth74

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Would probably need to train a whole links' worth of scotrail drivers on 185s but that isn't a major thing (2 day conversion course I understand).
Hmm, I was always under the impression that learning an entirely new unit of rolling stock takes longer than 2 days...
 

Failed Unit

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The 185s have gone to Stirling (but I am not sure if that was under thier own power or not) One was there to show of Sieman's units to Scotland around the order time of the 380s. No idea how it got there (ie via Edinburgh or another way)
 

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At one time, the daily London - Inverness Clansman service went Euston - Birmingham - Crewe - Preston - Carlisle - Motherwell - Cumbernauld - Stirling - Perth - Inverness. It used to (supposedly) pick-up only between Euston and Birmingham (or Wolverhampton), but was unrestricted southbound. Sometime in the 1980's, the Highland Cheifain was introduced, and both services operated (I believe) in tandem. The Clansman then got cut back to terminate at Edinburgh Waverley, then got withdrawn completely.
BEFORE that, there were regular-ish services up the WCML to and beyond Perth via Motherwell - about 3 or 4 a day in both directions. In my view, there should be 3 trains a day between Birmingham and Perth, with one train a day extended to/from Inverness and another to/from Aberdeen, the latter via Dundee.
 

Greenback

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There is undoubtedly demand between stations on the WCML and those north of the central belt. The question is how much, and what extra demand will be attracted to a through service, compared to those already travelling but happy to change trains?

I suspect that the TOC's consider that there is insufficient demand to justify any additional expense or hassle, especially if it is to be a very limited service.
 

Failed Unit

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For the starting point it is a pity that Scotrails Motherwell to Cumbernauld service doesnt run to Stirling. Although I suspect it is less desirable now with the drop in WCML services stopping at Motherwell.
 

tbtc

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If the TPX unit, which if I'm correct arrived into Edinburgh at 19.39 on the Saturday evening and was stabled for the interim 15 hours, were to be sent North to Perth at 20.03(ish) and stabled at Perth instead, this would deliver an improved Saturday evening service from Edinburgh-Stirling-Perth
There is certainly a gap at 20:03 from Edinburgh to Stirling (the first "missing" service in the evening on that route, since the Waverley departures are half hourly until 19:33 then just hourly), though obviously FSR have plenty spare stock to run a 20:03 if they thought that there was sufficient demand for one.
 

Martin_1981

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Used to be Aberdeen/Dundee to Brum/South West and it was always via Carlisle
Yes, up until 2002 before 'Operation Princess', Virgin XC ran the 0912 Aberdeen-Plymouth and 0720 Plymouth-Aberdeen 'Devon Scot' via Dundee, Edinburgh, Carlisle, Manchester Piccadilly, and Birmingham. These were worked by HST's.

From 2002 onwards, the southbound train from Aberdeen ran to Penzance, and towards the end of XC's WCML services in 2006/7, I think it only went as far as Birmingham but don't think it went via Man Picc. In December 2007, the Aberdeens were routed via the lengthy ECML route to/from Birmingham. Progress? Not necessarily I don't think!!
 

route:oxford

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The 185s have gone to Stirling (but I am not sure if that was under thier own power or not) One was there to show of Sieman's units to Scotland around the order time of the 380s. No idea how it got there (ie via Edinburgh or another way)
Here is an image of the 185 en-route to Stirling, 7th February, 2007.

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/NewSite POD 2007/POD10_02_07.jpg



The first Class 185 to visit Scotland was on 7 February when set No. 185138 was hauled from Manchester via Mossend to Stirling by top and tailed Class 67s Nos. 67030 and 67006 and is seen passing Plean Junction. The set was used as part of a Siemens demonstration.
With acknowledgement to:-

James Young & www.therailwaycentre.com


(So we can be reasonably sure that a 185 can get as far as Stirling without too many issues).
 

Blindtraveler

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well the run is cleared for HSTs so dont see a 185 being too complex although there may be door issues? I wouldnt know. As someone mentioned earlier Scotland I would have thought may well see 185 opperation on express services in future, a move I would, despite my hatred of 185s welcome as they are far better suited than 170s
 

D1009

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Before the WCML was electrified beyond Weaver Junction, there was at least one daytime train that operated between WCML stations & terminated at Perth. I also seem to recall that Perth used to have a separate sleeper service in days gone by.
As I recall the one daytime train to which you were referring departed Crewe at 0925, and only had 5 or 6 coaches as the return working in the evening was a mail train conveying a lot of vans in addition to the passenger stock. I'm willing to be corected on this but I think this train lasted until the 1973 timetable when electric working to Preston was introduced. The 0925 from Crewe was replaced by the Midland Scot from Birmingham to Glasgow, as the daytime West Midlands service to Glasgow had been very sparse. This train was launched with much bagpipe playing and was hauled by a pair of class 50s from Preston. At the time all the Perth and Inverness sleepers went via Mossend, and the Perth service was well liked by enthusiasts as there was ample mk 1 seating compartment accommodation.
 
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route:oxford

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well the run is cleared for HSTs so dont see a 185 being too complex although there may be door issues? I wouldnt know. As someone mentioned earlier Scotland I would have thought may well see 185 opperation on express services in future, a move I would, despite my hatred of 185s welcome as they are far better suited than 170s
Also regular territory for the 158 - often touted as being the most problematic for doors.
 
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