Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[The Planner]

Pity unlike the rog drags to Long Marston, know it will never happen, unless failure, which will happen if available a 37 for haulage.
37 to haul Mk5s, so train will have 100 per cent reliability, with 68 supplying train heat and power, but like a old generator van style, noise free, but if only, 37 with 68 stuck inside, proper haulage.

Why would you have a dirty noisy 37 hauling a dead 68 and Mk5s? The railway doesn't revolve around "haulage"

 

[xotGD]

Why would you have a dirty noisy 37 hauling a dead 68 and Mk5s? The railway doesn't revolve around "haulage"

Well we had a "dirty noisy" 37 hauling a dead 66 and stone train down Airedale a few weeks ago, so anything can happen!

 

[The Planner]

Well we had a "dirty noisy" 37 hauling a dead 66 and stone train down Airedale a few weeks ago, so anything can happen!

Slightly different to hauling a non dead 68 on a passenger service.

 

[RobShipway]

Why would you have a dirty noisy 37 hauling a dead 68 and Mk5s? The railway doesn't revolve around "haulage"

There has previously been two class 37's working with MK2 coaches in between them, working in place of class 150 services, so why not in place off or as well as a lass 68?

 

[The Planner]

There has previously been two class 37's working with MK2 coaches in between them, working in place of class 150 services, so why not in place off or as well as a lass 68?

Take a step back and think about that again when we are talking about Marylebone. Also, take another step back and then ask yourself why you would drag a 68 (which isn't dead) behind a 37?

 

[RobShipway]

Take a step back and think about that again when we are talking about Marylebone. Also, take another step back and then ask yourself why you would drag a 68 (which isn't dead) behind a 37?

I would agree that you would not have a class 37 and 68 working from Marylebone and maybe not have a class 37 dragging a class 68 on a permanent basis. It would only be a fill in service or if appropriate just have the class 68 work with the MK5A coaches.

A good example as to where I think the MK5a and class 68 could be used is on services such as Weymouth - Bristol Temple Meads, most especially the 2030 service today from Weymouth.

 

[D365]

I would agree that you would not have a class 37 and 68 working from Marylebone and maybe not have a class 37 dragging a class 68 on a permanent basis. It would only be a fill in service or if appropriate just have the class 68 work with the MK5A coaches.

You wouldn’t ever have a Class 37 operating a Mk5a set. The sets are only compatible with modified Class 68s

 

[Neptune]

I would agree that you would not have a class 37 and 68 working from Marylebone and maybe not have a class 37 dragging a class 68 on a permanent basis. It would only be a fill in service or if appropriate just have the class 68 work with the MK5A coaches.

Sorry I don’t get it. Why would you have a 37 and 68 working a fleet of coaches that a 68 can more than adequately haul on their own.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Sorry I don’t get it. Why would you have a 37 and 68 working a fleet of coaches that a 68 can more than adequately haul on their own.

I can only imagine a mix of 68 and 37 top and tail with no DVT, BDSO or suchlike. So rules out the Mk5s !.

 

[zwk500]

I would agree that you would not have a class 37 and 68 working from Marylebone and maybe not have a class 37 dragging a class 68 on a permanent basis. It would only be a fill in service or if appropriate just have the class 68 work with the MK5A coaches.

'Maybe'? If the problem with 68s is Noise than a 37 does nothing for your case.

A good example as to where I think the MK5a and class 68 could be used is on services such as Weymouth - Bristol Temple Meads, most especially the 2030 service today from Weymouth.

Dorchester to Castle Cary is RA6, Class 68s are RA7 so you'd need either a lot of work or to go quite slowly.

 

[RobShipway]

Dorchester to Castle Cary is RA6, Class 68s are RA7 so you'd need either a lot of work or to go quite slowly.

I wondered if that might be the case. Can the class 37's be used with the DVT?

It maybe me, but I would suspect that you would not have noise complaint on services from Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads. Services from Marylebone, the class 68's either need to be converted to be use able with battery power for 10 - 20 miles, but could then be recharged from the diesel engine at full line speed. Otherwise I think Chiltern need to be looking at BDMU trains, unless the lines into Marylebone can be electrified in some way.

 

[D365]

I wondered if that might be the case. Can the class 37's be used with the DVT?

Class 37s cannot be operated with any DVT.

 

[RobShipway]

Class 37s cannot be operated with any DVT.

Okay, thanks @D365 I thought that maybe the case.

 

[zwk500]

I wondered if that might be the case. Can the class 37's be used with the DVT?

For clarification, the Mk5 DVT* has AAR-standard control working, and so can only be used with classes that have such enabled is setup for Class 68s. It may even be more restrictive than that because AIUI Class 68s can only work in multiple with other 68s or 88s, yet other classes beyond those 2 have AAR multi-working equipment.

* - Extreme pedantry, but because the Mk5 Control car carries passengers it's not a DVT, Wikipedia has it's designation as a TSOD, but a DTSO.

 

[43096]

For clarification, the Mk5 DVT* has AAR-standard control working, and so can only be used with classes that have such enabled. It may even be more restrictive than that because AIUI Class 68s can only work in multiple with other 68s or 88s, yet other classes beyond those 2 have AAR multi-working equipment.

The Mark 5 does not have AAR control kit. It's the same WTB system that is native to the 68s. Are you thinking of the Chiltern Mark 3s or TfW Mark 4s, that do have AAR?

* - Extreme pedantry, but because the Mk5 Control car carries passengers it's not a DVT, Wikipedia has it's designation as a TSOD.

If you want to believe Wikipedia, sure... The more usual UK designation would be DTS or DTSO. TSOD would normally be a vehicle with a disabled toilet and wheelchair space.

 

[zwk500]

The Mark 5 does not have AAR control kit. It's the same WTB system that is native to the 68s. Are you thinking of the Chiltern Mark 3s or TfW Mark 4s, that do have AAR?

Thanks for the clarification, I think I was just thinking it would be AAR as that's (apparently) what the 68s have. But always good to know what's around the network!

If you want to believe Wikipedia, sure... The more usual UK designation would be DTS or DTSO. TSOD would normally be a vehicle with a disabled toilet and wheelchair space.

I don't have TOPS access so couldn't check anything more authoritative, hence the qualification of mentioning the information was from Wikipedia.

 

[43 302]

Only 68008-015 are AAR fitted, specifically for Mk3 DVT push-pull operation.

 

[12LDA28C]

I wondered if that might be the case. Can the class 37's be used with the DVT?

It maybe me, but I would suspect that you would not have noise complaint on services from Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads. Services from Marylebone, the class 68's either need to be converted to be use able with battery power for 10 - 20 miles, but could then be recharged from the diesel engine at full line speed. Otherwise I think Chiltern need to be looking at BDMU trains, unless the lines into Marylebone can be electrified in some way.

It's been mentioned on this forum ad nauseum that modifications are being developed to reduce the level of noise that 68s make and any use of 68s and Mk5s on the Chilterns would be dependent on those modifications being successful. And of course everyone is aware that Chiltern have already asked for expressions of interest from suppliers for a fleet of Battery / Hybrid DMU trains because there is zero chance of the Chilterns being electrified in the foreseeable future. Hope that gets you up to speed.

 

[sjpowermac]

Thanks for the clarification, I think I was just thinking it would be AAR as that's (apparently) what the 68s have. But always good to know what's around the network!

I don't have TOPS access so couldn't check anything more authoritative, hence the qualification of mentioning the information was from Wikipedia.

For the Mk5A sets the designation is ‘DT’ for ‘Driving Trailer’. DT is used on the dimension plates fitted to the vehicles and in CAF/TPE documentation.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm amused to see the ubiquitous Class 37 geriatrics being suggested for yet another swan song role. After 60 years it's amazing how they're clinging on

 

[gingertom]

I'm amused to see the ubiquitous Class 37 geriatrics being suggested for yet another swan song role. After 60 years it's amazing how they're clinging on

I suspect if the 37s had an engine swap (thinking MTU 16V4000 R41R out of the class 43, slightly detuned) they'd maybe last another 60 years

 

[RobShipway]

It's been mentioned on this forum ad nauseum that modifications are being developed to reduce the level of noise that 68s make and any use of 68s and Mk5s on the Chilterns would be dependent on those modifications being successful. And of course everyone is aware that Chiltern have already asked for expressions of interest from suppliers for a fleet of Battery / Hybrid DMU trains because there is zero chance of the Chilterns being electrified in the foreseeable future. Hope that gets you up to speed.

Like a few within these forums, I am someone that does not like to leave any stones unturned, especially when it comes to stock that was constructed 6 years ago. However, there does come a point when some stock are in the position where they cannot be used for anything here within the UK anymore and possibly need to travel aboard. This maybe the case for the MK5A stock, if the noise levels cannot be either reduced or the class 68 locos given enough in battery power to be pulling out of stations like Marylebone. before diesel power can be used at a safe distance.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Like a few within these forums, I am someone that does not like to leave any stones unturned, especially when it comes to stock that was constructed 6 years ago. However, there does come a point when some stock are in the position where they cannot be used for anything here within the UK anymore and possibly need to travel aboard. This maybe the case for the MK5A stock, if the noise levels cannot be either reduced or the class 68 locos given enough in battery power to be pulling out of stations like Marylebone. before diesel power can be used at a safe distance.

There will not be room in a 68 for any usable amount of traction batteries. If there was then I suggest the space would already have gone to bigger silencers. Most main line diesel locomotives of a descent power rating will not have space for traction batteries. Look at the class 93 and 99 - to get some usable traction batteries in them they have to have a smaller engine - around 1,250 hp as a maximum.

 

[43096]

There will not be room in a 68 for any usable amount of traction batteries. If there was then I suggest the space would already have gone to bigger silencers. Most main line diesel locomotives of a descent power rating will not have space for traction batteries. Look at the class 93 and 99 - to get some usable traction batteries in them they have to have a smaller engine - around 1,250 hp as a maximum.

Class 99 does not have traction batteries.

 

[sjpowermac]

There will not be room in a 68 for any usable amount of traction batteries. If there was then I suggest the space would already have gone to bigger silencers. Most main line diesel locomotives of a descent power rating will not have space for traction batteries. Look at the class 93 and 99 - to get some usable traction batteries in them they have to have a smaller engine - around 1,250 hp as a maximum.

Like a few within these forums, I am someone that does not like to leave any stones unturned, especially when it comes to stock that was constructed 6 years ago. However, there does come a point when some stock are in the position where they cannot be used for anything here within the UK anymore and possibly need to travel aboard. This maybe the case for the MK5A stock, if the noise levels cannot be either reduced or the class 68 locos given enough in battery power to be pulling out of stations like Marylebone. before diesel power can be used at a safe distance.

As I understand it, the batteries in the Class 93s take up the space that on a Class 68 is used for the dynamic brake stack (fan, resistors and heat outlet). As a result of this, the Class 93 doesn’t have a dynamic brake.

I would think it spectacularly unlikely that the Class 68s will ever be converted to a diesel/battery bi-mode, but I don’t think that space would necessarily be the limiting factor.

I don’t think that operating in ‘battery only’ mode a Class 93 would have the necessary reactive effort to get an express train away from a station and so that’s not something that’s really an option, ditto a prototypical ‘bi-mode’ Class 68.

Hope that helps

 

[D365]

Like a few within these forums, I am someone that does not like to leave any stones unturned, especially when it comes to stock that was constructed 6 years ago.

It’s a pity that you aren’t on commission from Beacon Rail in that case!

I suspect if the 37s had an engine swap (thinking MTU 16V4000 R41R out of the class 43, slightly detuned) they'd maybe last another 60 years

Here’s your answer…

A very-special Class 37 diesel locomotive is expected to be on display at this weekend's Diesel Gala on the Great Central Railway.

The Gala, to be held this Saturday and Sunday, 22nd and 23rd April, will see Class No. 37207 on display at Quorn.

Owned by the Heavy Tractor Group, 37207 has been converted to run on batteries following three years of research and development by Meteor Power.

Meteor Power's development of a battery conversion system for the locomotive provides a greener, cheaper, and quieter solution for freight or ‘super shunter' work.

Throughout last summer, 37207 was used to test an electric powertrain that Meteor Power had installed in a Class 08 diesel shunter and is now ready to receive its own electric conversion. As part of its test programme, last June successfully travelled 1½ miles within Wolverton Works on battery power.

Before undergoing its transformation, 37207 had sat unused for nearly two decades, but it is under the care of the Heavy Tractor Group which also cares for classmates Nos. 37714 and D6700.

The Heavy Tractor Group is a group of volunteers dedicated to preserving and operating a working example of a British Rail Class 37 Type 3 locomotive.

Whilst on the Great Central Railway, 37207 will be stored undercover at Swithland, where the Heavy Tractor Group will also carry out some work on the locomotive.

It is hoped that the mainline certification process of 37207 will take place later this year.

I wonder how they’re getting on with the certification?

 

[Greybeard33]

DRS has announced it is disposing of all six of its remaining 37s, which will presumably mean more freight work for the 68s.

Direct Rail Services Announces Retirement of Class 37 Locomotives - Direct Rail Services

Direct Rail Services (DRS) is to retire its iconic Class 37 locomotives, marking the end of an era for these stalwarts of the rail industry. The decision comes as part of DRS’s commitment to the environment, fleet modernisation and adapting to evolving operational needs. Since their...

www.directrailservices.com

The decision to retire the Class 37 locomotives is driven by the need to modernise their fleet, embracing newer technologies, and meeting the environmental and operational challenges of the future. This move aligns with DRS’s commitment to providing efficient and sustainable rail services.

If Chiltern were to acquire Mk5a sets to replace its Mk3s, I guess that Chiltern's current 68s could go back to DRS in order that ex-TPE 68s could remain with the Mk5a's.

 

[Peter Sarf]

DRS has announced it is disposing of all six of its remaining 37s, which will presumably mean more freight work for the 68s.

Direct Rail Services Announces Retirement of Class 37 Locomotives - Direct Rail Services

Direct Rail Services (DRS) is to retire its iconic Class 37 locomotives, marking the end of an era for these stalwarts of the rail industry. The decision comes as part of DRS’s commitment to the environment, fleet modernisation and adapting to evolving operational needs. Since their...

www.directrailservices.com

If Chiltern were to acquire Mk5a sets to replace its Mk3s, I guess that Chiltern's current 68s could go back to DRS in order that ex-TPE 68s could remain with the Mk5a's.

That is what I would expect (a 68 swap).

Any news on the silencer mods / noise mitigation ?.

 

[12LDA28C]

That is what I would expect (a 68 swap).

Any news on the silencer mods / noise mitigation ?.

The modification is still being developed I believe, I haven't heard of any loco yet receiving the mod.

 

[Neptune]

The modification is still being developed I believe, I haven't heard of any loco yet receiving the mod.

Could I ask is there actually any link to these mods that you often talk about?