Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[greyman42]

except that Scotland has a decarbonisation goal and these trains are notoriously thirsty, so they would be a big step backwards.

The decarbonisation goal is unrealistic so should be ignored in the real world.

 

[dk1]

except that Scotland has a decarbonisation goal and these trains are notoriously thirsty, so they would be a big step backwards. What Scotrail need are bi-mode trains to get the diesels out of the city centres and get the maximum benefits/return from their wires.

I agree but even if they issued tenders now we are looking at years before they’d enter traffic and would be a quicker fix at removing HSTs from traffic.

 

[BlueLeanie]

waiting to see what the next government's attitude is to increasing public transport capacity...?

Exactly this. It's three weeks until the election. Rail companies are pretty much covered by "purdah" rules at these times due to the way they receive funding.

We'll probably have a Labour PM. We have a Labour Mayor of London and Labour Mayor of Birmingham who are both keen on cutting emissions. Electrification of Marylebone to Birmingham would be a key element to keep backing the PM for 5 years. Didcot to MK a no brainer at the same time.

Once electrification is confirmed for Chiltern, then it'll be pressing these sets into service for 5+ years.

 

[craigybagel]

Immagine the 222's will have the same issue as the mk5's with DOO south of Banbury unless they only take on enough to cover the current LHCS's services as I can't see those being line up with mirrors and the door arrangement is not suitable for Chitern work.

Logic seems to suggest 175's tbh. We will see.

All 3 proposed fleets are unsuitable for DOO on the Chiltern network without some degree of modification.

 

[BlueLeanie]

except that Scotland has a decarbonisation goal and these trains are notoriously thirsty, so they would be a big step backwards. What Scotrail need are bi-mode trains to get the diesels out of the city centres and get the maximum benefits/return from their wires.

More importantly.

Notoriously reliable.

 

[Trainbike46]

except that Scotland has a decarbonisation goal and these trains are notoriously thirsty, so they would be a big step backwards. What Scotrail need are bi-mode trains to get the diesels out of the city centres and get the maximum benefits/return from their wires.

Would they be thirstier than the HSTs? For some reason I doubt that.

Long-term Scotrail wants and needs new trains, however I could see the logic in them temporarily leasing the 222s or the Mk 5As, though with the latter you could replace the locomotives with electric ones when electrification allows.

 

[AndrewE]

Would they be thirstier than the HSTs? For some reason I doubt that.

Long-term Scotrail wants and needs new trains, however I could see the logic in them temporarily leasing the 222s or the Mk 5As, though with the latter you could replace the locomotives with electric ones when electrification allows.

or just use class 93s? They are almost ready now and the coaches are waiting for some real work!

 

[dk1]

or just use class 93s? They are almost ready now and the coaches are waiting for some real work!

But there are only ten of them.

 

[craigybagel]

or just use class 93s? They are almost ready now and the coaches are waiting for some real work!

Scotland is rather hilly. Good luck finding a route the 93s can match HST timings on on the non electrified sections with it's limited amount of available power on diesel

 

[Chester1]

Exactly this. It's three weeks until the election. Rail companies are pretty much covered by "purdah" rules at these times due to the way they receive funding.

We'll probably have a Labour PM. We have a Labour Mayor of London and Labour Mayor of Birmingham who are both keen on cutting emissions. Electrification of Marylebone to Birmingham would be a key element to keep backing the PM for 5 years. Didcot to MK a no brainer at the same time.

Once electrification is confirmed for Chiltern, then it'll be pressing these sets into service for 5+ years.

Which companies are free to do that much work? It won't be a vote winner if it means cancelling electrification of MML or lines in the North West.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Which companies are free to do that much work? It won't be a vote winner if it means cancelling electrification of MML or lines in the North West.

Who said it needs to be a private company? I thought that NR did the electrification of their own track themselves. Surely the more there is the more staff are needed to maintain it so who better than the staff who put it up?

 

[HSTEd]

Who said it needs to be a private company? I thought that NR did the electrification of their own track themselves. Surely the more there is the more staff are needed to maintain it so who better than the staff who put it up?

No, Network Rail normally hires a contractor to do the vast majority of the work.

Even in the BR era there was extensive use of contractor labour during electrification projects - if nothing else because it requires far more staff than will ever be needed for maintenance.

 

[12LDA28C]

In yesterday's 'Message the Manager' session with Chiltern's deputy head of train planning, he stated:

x.com

x.com

This suggests that the Mk5s haven't yet been completely discounted for Chiltern, though it's disappointing that nobody seems to have made a decision.

Meanwhile perfectly good trains continue to gather dust.

The Mk5s haven't been discounted at all. The decision will be based entirely on what the DfT is prepared to pay for, regardless of Chiltern's preference for a particular type.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

So seems to me Chiltern must be trending towards one of the other two (which are not yet available) rather than mk5s which they could have already taken.
The only alternative is they are playing for time hoping price falls when the others hit the market too (but of course no guarantee price will drop).

Chiltern couldn't have 'already taken' the Mk5s.

As I already posted above, no decision from the DfT is expected until late Summer. Chiltern would love to take on new trains ASAP but this kind of thing doesn't happen quickly in the current climate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2024 ==

Once electrification is confirmed for Chiltern, then it'll be pressing these sets into service for 5+ years.

You really think if Labour get in they'll commit to electrifying the Chilterns? I reckon there's zero chance of that.

 

[Snow1964]

Chiltern couldn't have 'already taken' the Mk5s.

As I already posted above, no decision from the DfT is expected until late Summer. Chiltern would love to take on new trains ASAP but this kind of thing doesn't happen quickly in the current climate.

Doesn't really happen slowly either.

Unless I am mistaken only one train order has been signed off in last 4 years. (10 trains for LNER), others have been talking about it for years but not convinced DfT

 

[Peter Sarf]

.........................

You really think if Labour get in they'll commit to electrifying the Chilterns? I reckon there's zero chance of that.

Oh if only for a rolling program of electrification. But we in the UK prefer to disband the experienced teams built up over time and then get surprised by the learning curve later. Of course the UK is skint and even Labour won't find the magic money tree.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I do.

I think that the Mayor of London and Mayor of Birmingham are very powerful within the Labour Party and will be seeking an early commitment from our next PM to deliver electrification on the Chiltern Mainline. They have previously demanded action.

The air around Marylebone station is a toxic filth fest at the moment, at around 8x the WHO recommendations for NOx and PM2.50 particulates. Moor Street is marginally worse.

Just a shame really that BR didn't run third rail all the way out to Banbury and Aylesbury back in the 1950s.

 

[D6130]

I do.

I think that the Mayor of London and Mayor of Birmingham are very powerful within the Labour Party and will be seeking an early commitment from our next PM to deliver electrification on the Chiltern Mainline. They have previously demanded action.

The air around Marylebone station is a toxic filth fest at the moment, at around 8x the WHO recommendations for NOx and PM2.50 particulates. Moor Street is marginally worse.

Just a shame really that BR didn't run third rail all the way out to Banbury and Aylesbury back in the 1950s.

IIRC, the future of Marylebone was already in doubt by then.

 

[12LDA28C]

I do.

I think that the Mayor of London and Mayor of Birmingham are very powerful within the Labour Party and will be seeking an early commitment from our next PM to deliver electrification on the Chiltern Mainline. They have previously demanded action.

The air around Marylebone station is a toxic filth fest at the moment, at around 8x the WHO recommendations for NOx and PM2.50 particulates. Moor Street is marginally worse.

Just a shame really that BR didn't run third rail all the way out to Banbury and Aylesbury back in the 1950s.

And where will they find the money to do that?

Funny, I'm in Marylebone most days and don't find it that unpleasant at all. You make it sound as if people are struggling to breathe. And why on earth would BR have run third rail out to Banbury? For a start, the London Underground is not BR and secondly only the Met as far as Amersham is 3rd/4th rail, none of the 'Western' route is electrified.

 

[AndrewE]

I think that the Mayor of London and Mayor of Birmingham are very powerful within the Labour Party and will be seeking an early commitment from our next PM to deliver electrification on the Chiltern Mainline..

Funny, I'm in Marylebone most days and don't find it that unpleasant at all. You make it sound as if people are struggling to breathe.

Could the ULEZ (on top of vehicle emission standards) be having an influence on the air quality?
And re funding of public transport (and its emission) improvements, where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Could the ULEZ (on top of vehicle emission standards) be having an influence on the air quality?
And re funding of public transport (and its emission) improvements, where there's a will there's a way.

The will to do something often ebbs away when someone says if YOU want it then YOU pay for it.

 

[AndrewE]

The will to do something often ebbs away when someone says if YOU want it then YOU pay for it.

That is why we need politicians with vision, a majority and commitment. Too many worthwhile developments have been lost due to "leaders" losing their nerve.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That is why we need politicians with vision, a majority and commitment. Too many worthwhile developments have been lost due to "leaders" losing their nerve.

But who pays for it ? - the tax payers and they vote. Oh and how many voters care about the railways ? - judging by my friends and acquaintances the answer is not many...

 

[AndrewE]

But who pays for it ? - the tax payers and they vote. Oh and how many voters care about the railways ? - judging by my friends and acquaintances the answer is not many...

You don't get owt for nowt.
When I mentioned "funding of public transport (and its emission) improvements" I was hoping that a mature electorate (or even young people with an eye on the near future - aware of climate change but but probably no driving licenses) would see the political arithmetic.

All our public services have been starved of money for so long that I'm afraid that "there's a hard rain a gonna fall" if we want developed-world satndards

However most of us in the UK in the UK will (mostly) still be immeasurably weathier and more comfortable than when my wife and I were at the start of my career in the mid-1970s. A cold bedroom with a paraffin heater nearly killed us, most furniture was bought in second-hand shops or from friends, carpet pieces for our new (old) house were gratefully accepted to cover a solid floor.
Too much money is being spent nowadays on stuff which just accelerates global warming,

 

[Peter Sarf]

You don't get owt for nowt.
When I mentioned "funding of public transport (and its emission) improvements" I was hoping that a mature electorate (or even young people with an eye on the near future - aware of climate change but but probably no driving licenses) would see the political arithmetic.

All our public services have been starved of money for so long that I'm afraid that "there's a hard rain a gonna fall" if we want developed-world satndards

However most of us in the UK in the UK will (mostly) still be immeasurably weathier and more comfortable than when my wife and I were at the start of my career in the mid-1970s. A cold bedroom with a paraffin heater nearly killed us, most furniture was bought in second-hand shops or from friends, carpet pieces for our new (old) house were gratefully accepted to cover a solid floor.
Too much money is being spent nowadays on stuff which just accelerates global warming,

I agree consumerism and car culture have conquered common sense. They both appeal to the greedy in humans.

There is also a danger we over egg pollution (in terms of unhealthy for humans rather then unhealthy for the planet) if we do that then people will turn their back.

As an aside I would say the last half dozen or so posts might be better as part of a separate thread as 68s+Mk5s indeed even the railways are just a symptom of this.

 

[Trainbike46]

And where will they find the money to do that?

Funny, I'm in Marylebone most days and don't find it that unpleasant at all. You make it sound as if people are struggling to breathe. And why on earth would BR have run third rail out to Banbury? For a start, the London Underground is not BR and secondly only the Met as far as Amersham is 3rd/4th rail, none of the 'Western' route is electrified.

It's clearly not Birmingham New Street levels of bad, but the air quality meters around Marylebone consistently show some of the worst air quality in London - though I don't think the railway is primarily to blame for that, or even a major contributor (unlike at New Street), but reducing railway emissions will make air quality better, especially at the station itself

 

[greyman42]

The air around Marylebone station is a toxic filth fest at the moment, at around 8x the WHO recommendations for NOx and PM2.50 particulates.

I would imagine that Euston Road is responsible for most of that.

 

[paul1609]

I would imagine that Euston Road is responsible for most of that.

I would imagine it probably isnt. The west london pollution hotspot that had previously been blamed on the A40 Westway almost disappeared overnight the day HSTs stopped running in to Paddington.

 

[172007]

So in the class 175 speculation / future uses it seems that GWR Laira will get an allocation.

This does in theory mean that class 175's have been ruled out for Chiltern so, it's C222 or Mk5A's or Nothing are in the running now. Two horse race, will the Mk5A's be coming to Chiltern and with movement during the general election will a set make it to Stourbridge or Aylesbury for "storage" just like the 175 unit to Laira.

I think that the class 93 at Rail Live this weekend should be coupled to a Mk5A rake to generate lots of additional frothing and wibble; oo I do like wibble as I am an expert at it.

 

[12LDA28C]

So in the class 175 speculation / future uses it seems that GWR Laira will get an allocation.

This does in theory mean that class 175's have been ruled out for Chiltern so, it's C222 or Mk5A's or Nothing are in the running now. Two horse race, will the Mk5A's be coming to Chiltern and with movement during the general election will a set make it to Stourbridge or Aylesbury for "storage" just like the 175 unit to Laira.

I think that the class 93 at Rail Live this weekend should be coupled to a Mk5A rake to generate lots of additional frothing and wibble; oo I do like wibble as I am an expert at it.

As previously mentioned, no decision is expected until later in the summer so any information posted before that time would be pure speculation. It's all down to what the DfT are prepared to pay for.

 

[37201xoIM]

...
I think that the class 93 at Rail Live this weekend should be coupled to a Mk5A rake to generate lots of additional frothing and wibble; oo I do like wibble as I am an expert at it.

Though naturally a class 93 would bring you precisely no benefit on the Chiltern line (and would not keep to time)... unlike, of course, on an electrified Diggle line, as I doubt I am the first to observe!