Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[The exile]

Though naturally a class 93 would bring you precisely no benefit on the Chiltern line (and would not keep to time)... unlike, of course, on an electrified Diggle line, as I doubt I am the first to observe!

Which was one of the points made prior to the introduction of Mk5s on TP - initially diesel-hauled but swapping to bi-mode or electric with no need for modification of stock once things had got that far.

 

[ainsworth74]

As previously mentioned, no decision is expected until later in the summer so any information posted before that time would be pure speculation. It's all down to what the DfT are prepared to pay for.

Well, this is the Speculative Discussion section so if we cannot speculate here where can we

 

[12LDA28C]

Well, this is the Speculative Discussion section so if we cannot speculate here where can we

Well, indeed.

 

[37201xoIM]

Which was one of the points made prior to the introduction of Mk5s on TP - initially diesel-hauled but swapping to bi-mode or electric with no need for modification of stock once things had got that far.

Precisely so. An Inconvenient Truth in the context of certain recent decisions...

 

[warwickshire]

Speculation continues here in West Midlands, Warwickshire area, either abroad or Chiltern, was it possible the tories wanted them abroad so the Dft and Tories could have made a good backhander on them. However will the new Labour transport secretary do the right thing and with the West Midlands mayor who is also keen on the Mk5s, coming to Chiltern, finally get them, there by working together to ensure this happens, under the new Labour Manifesto.

 

[Energy]

was it possible the tories wanted them abroad so the Dft and Tories could have made a good backhander on them.

They do not own them, it makes no financial difference to the DfT.

 

[CBlue]

Speculation continues here in West Midlands, Warwickshire area, either abroad or Chiltern, was it possible the tories wanted them abroad so the Dft and Tories could have made a good backhander on them. However will the new Labour transport secretary do the right thing and with the West Midlands mayor who is also keen on the Mk5s, coming to Chiltern, finally get them, there by working together to ensure this happens, under the new Labour Manifesto.

I think there are far, far bigger political fish to fry than "keep loco haulage on Chiltern services"

 

[Peter Sarf]

Speculation continues here in West Midlands, Warwickshire area, either abroad or Chiltern, was it possible the tories wanted them abroad so the Dft and Tories could have made a good backhander on them. However will the new Labour transport secretary do the right thing and with the West Midlands mayor who is also keen on the Mk5s, coming to Chiltern, finally get them, there by working together to ensure this happens, under the new Labour Manifesto.

Chiltern are unlikely to invest any time, effort or money in something that continues to use 68s unless the 68s can be made quieter. The axe is hanging over use of 68s at Marylebone otherwise !.

 

[172007]

They do not own them, it makes no financial difference to the DfT.

I think you are wrong here.

The DfT does have a financial interest with leased trains. At the moment leasing companies, certanly for passenger passenger trains have an almost gold plated return for the service life of the assett and this is quite possibly factored into the overall lease pricing.

If all the sudden the DfT start to say well we're not going to renew a lease and leasing companies are lumbered with 10's if not 100's of millions worth of trains only 5 years old then they will either not continue in the Rosco industry or increase the leasing costs and ultimately cost the DfT and treasury more.

 

[Snow1964]

They do not own them, it makes no financial difference to the DfT.

Except the DfT needs the leasing market to work, and offer competitive prices.

If DfT annoy the market by mucking it about, Liz Truss style, then LeaseCo will price in a risk factor of big void periods, and everyone pays more in future.

What they might save on not leasing the mk5s, will potentially end up paying for multiple times over, on upcoming orders for Northern, GWR, South Eastern and Chiltern etc.

 

[12LDA28C]

Chiltern are unlikely to invest any time, effort or money in something that continues to use 68s unless the 68s can be made quieter. The axe is hanging over use of 68s at Marylebone otherwise !.

Potential use of the ex-TPE 68s and Mk5s is one of a number of options currently open to Chiltern, as has been widely reported in the press. Of course it's the DfT that will make the final decision though.

 

[Royston Vasey]

If all the sudden the DfT start to say well we're not going to renew a lease and leasing companies are lumbered with 10's if not 100's of millions worth of trains only 5 years old then they will either not continue in the Rosco industry or increase the leasing costs and ultimately cost the DfT and treasury more.

Now there's a thought

 

[43102EMR]

Potential use of the ex-TPE 68s and Mk5s is one of a number of options currently open to Chiltern, as has been widely reported in the press. Of course it's the DfT that will make the final decision though.

Given it’s now Labour running things rather than the Tories, I would imagine that brand new trains sitting around bone idle will be seen as a failure of the latter, which the former will be looking to fix ASAP.

 

[Energy]

Except the DfT needs the leasing market to work, and offer competitive prices.

If DfT annoy the market by mucking it about, Liz Truss style, then LeaseCo will price in a risk factor of big void periods, and everyone pays more in future.

What they might save on not leasing the mk5s, will potentially end up paying for multiple times over, on upcoming orders for Northern, GWR, South Eastern and Chiltern etc.

Either way, the DfT/Government aren't profiting from it. However, you are right that a loss may increase the risk factored into future leases.

 

[12LDA28C]

Given it’s now Labour running things rather than the Tories, I would imagine that brand new trains sitting around bone idle will be seen as a failure of the latter, which the former will be looking to fix ASAP.

Although we've had a change of Government with new ministers appointed, many of the civil servants at the DfT and Treasury will be the same so it remains to be seen exactly how much gets 'fixed' and when.

 

[AndrewE]

Although we've had a change of Government with new ministers appointed, many of the civil servants at the DfT and Treasury will be the same so it remains to be seen exactly how much gets 'fixed' and when.

but at least [I hope] there will be politicians pushing policies in the public interest - and maybe some green things too.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...aslit-government-14-years-labour-keir-starmer has the interesting comment

“For the first time in my career, I feel like I can breathe a little, and that I won’t face each day wondering what nasty bit of policy we’ll be told to enact. I’m under no illusions that I’ll personally agree with everything the new government will do – nor would I expect to – but I feel professionally revitalised knowing that the adults are back in charge.” (my bold.)

 

[Philip]

If Chiltern decide not to go for these, how about Cross Country as a potential future operator, or even TPE taking them back for another go? Both TOCs are in obvious need of more diesel trains; in Cross Country's case they'd work well on Manchester-Bristol with 5 coaches including first class, and this would allow all of the Manchester-Bournemouth and NE-SW services to run with doubled up Voyagers. It didn't work with TPE first time, but if they have sorted out the problems they had a couple of years ago then it could work out well with another try. Liverpool-Cleethorpes would be the obvious place for them if TPE took them back.

 

[172007]

Now there's a thought

Ha ha, I know. Problem is that goverments with the current academic econmoic thinking see government debt as a bad thing. So we end up with a situation where to keep debt down we end up paying more in leasing than what would have cost to service a government debt and paying it off

 

[D6975]

Since the withdrawal of 68/Mk5as from TPE services, TPE have not managed to do without them. They went out of their way to reduce cancellations to make it look like they were coping but this was done by reducing lots of turns from 6 car to 3 car. The resulting overcrowding (surprise surprise) has resulted in lots of dissatisfaction on these routes. What's the chances of the 68s returning to TPE? Training would be a refresher rather than from scratch so could probably done quite quickly.

 

[AndrewE]

Since the withdrawal of 68/Mk5as from TPE services, TPE have not managed to do without them. They went out of their way to reduce cancellations to make it look like they were coping but this was done by reducing lots of turns from 6 car to 3 car. The resulting overcrowding (surprise surprise) has resulted in lots of dissatisfaction on these routes. What's the chances of the 68s returning to TPE? Training would be a refresher rather than from scratch so could probably done quite quickly.

But is it worth asking first "Why did they get rid of them?"
Personally I would love to see them back for a step-change in capacity - provided by rolling stock already on hand and so no procurement delays either!

 

[BlueLeanie]

So how many do they need to make a substantive service improvement?

Should we see 7 (6+spare) sets return to TPE, and 6 (5+spare) sets go to Chiltern?

 

[12LDA28C]

So how many do they need to make a substantive service improvement?

Should we see 7 (6+spare) sets return to TPE, and 6 (5+spare) sets go to Chiltern?

I haven't seen it suggested anywhere that 68s will return to TPE. I appreciate this is the speculative discussion section but that is beyond unlikely.

 

[Chester1]

but at least [I hope] there will be politicians pushing policies in the public interest - and maybe some green things too.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...aslit-government-14-years-labour-keir-starmer has the interesting comment

That person is a terrible advert for the Civil Service. The entire concept of it is that it is there to serve the government of the day, whoever that is. Lets say Reform wins the next election. Probably the Guardinista will moan but stick around and do a lazy job....

 

[Bikeman78]

I would imagine it probably isnt. The west london pollution hotspot that had previously been blamed on the A40 Westway almost disappeared overnight the day HSTs stopped running in to Paddington.

That sounds dubious. The fleet was gradually run down over the best part of a year.

 

[londonteacher]

Out of curious could they be converted into Mark 5s rather than 5a and then be used as Riviera stock? Cost is probably the issue here.

 

[JonathanH]

Out of curious could they be converted into Mark 5s rather than 5a and then be used as Riviera stock? Cost is probably the issue here.

Cost is absolutely the issue. They are unlikely to be available at scrap value, which is the only way they could end up as charter stock.

 

[Anonymous10]

Cost is absolutely the issue. They are unlikely to be available at scrap value, which is the only way they could end up as charter stock.

The riviera I'm assuming means the gwr sleeper not a charter.

 

[AF91]

Chiltern are unlikely to invest any time, effort or money in something that continues to use 68s unless the 68s can be made quieter. The axe is hanging over use of 68s at Marylebone otherwise !.

Labour's anti NIMBY stance will hopefully put an end to that.

 

[AndrewE]

Labour's anti NIMBY stance will hopefully put an end to that.

or the availability of some class 93s...

 

[172007]

Out of curious could they be converted into Mark 5s rather than 5a and then be used as Riviera stock? Cost is probably the issue here.

Mk5's actually not as wide as Mk5's so no they are not suitable for sleeper service as there would not be enough width to the corridor and you can't have sleeper births turned around due to the potential for spinal damage if the train stops abruptly.