Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[61653 HTAFC]

It wouldn’t go down well if a train company introduced first class causing a decrease in standard class seats…

What needs to happen is the Mk5as gaining a more high density layout as @Bletchleyite stated, otherwise the reduction in capacity would be incredibly apprarent. Something like the seating layout that the 80x have would work well.

Changing the seat pattern would be much easier if they'd adopted the DB practice of fitting reservation screens to the seats themselves, rather than to the sides of the coaches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Changing the seat pattern would be much easier if they'd adopted the DB practice of fitting reservation screens to the seats themselves, rather than to the sides of the coaches.

Chiltern don't do reservations and being a commuter style operation are unlikely to start, so this doesn't really matter. If they look odd you can just stick a black plastic strip over the top and hide them. Though TfW don't even care about that on the Mk4s, they're still there showing ECML reservations from the time LNER last used them!

 

[aar0]

Chiltern don't do reservations and being a commuter style operation are unlikely to start, so this doesn't really matter. If they look odd you can just stick a black plastic strip over the top and hide them. Though TfW don't even care about that on the Mk4s, they're still there showing ECML reservations from the time LNER last used them!

I think that’s a single coach that has them stuck - the others show a test pattern

 

[DJH1971]

Looking more likely to be going to Chiltern.

Chiltern Railways on verge of agreeing deal to take ex-TransPennine Express Mk 5s

All 13 sets have been redundant since the end of 2023.

www.railmagazine.com

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Chiltern Railways on verge of agreeing deal to take ex-TransPennine Express Mk 5s

14/05/2025 in Fleet
TransPennine's Mk 5A stock is currently in storage

RAIL understands that Chiltern Railways is on the verge of agreeing a deal with the Department for Transport and Beacon Rail to take all 13 sets of CAF Mk 5 coaches which have stood redundant since their days with TransPennine Express ended in December 2023.

A plan to take nine sets, but increased to six cars, has been shelved. Instead, all the 13 ex-TPE sets of five-cars are expected to transfer across. That will give each train 30 First Class and 261 Standard Class seats (with an additional six flip-down seats).

The Mk 5s will allow Chiltern to withdraw its elderly Mk 3 coaches, which date from the 1970s and have been in use with the operator for 15 years.

The switch also means that Chiltern will most likely have to take on 68019-032 to work with the trains, as its current locomotives (68008-015) have a different push-push set-up to the 14 previously used by TPE.

That would mean 68010-015, which are in Chiltern livery and used almost exclusively only on its trains, would return to Direct Rail Services or (more likely) to Beacon Rail. 68008/009 are modified to work with Mk 3s but remain DRS pool locomotives.

DRS also has 68033/034 (which it owns outright, rather than leased from Beacon Rail) modified to work with Mk 5s, although RAIL understands this equipment has been isolated. It could be reinstated to give extra contingency for Chiltern, as they were with TPE.

The increase of 13 sets will mean that Chiltern could realistically operate up to 11 diagrams a day with Class 68s and Mk 5s, although it is expected that the number of turns will more likely be nine or ten.

It is envisaged that four sets will be in use by March 2026, to allow a like-for-like swap with the Mk 3s, which would be withdrawn by May owing to their being in need of overhaul and corrosion repairs. The remaining sets would be introduced in the December 2026 timetable.

Mk 5s could allow more turns on the Marylebone to Birmingham Moor Street and Stourbridge Junction route to move to locomotive-hauled coaching stock, which would in turn would release Class 168s.

These could then be transferred to the new East West Rail link from Oxford to Milton Keynes, to allow the hired-in Class 196s to be returned to West Midlands Trains or used to strengthen other trains.

Chiltern was unwilling to confirm the speculation, merely issuing a statement saying: “We are engaged in constructive discussions with the Department for Transport and suppliers on securing replacement and additional trains, and hope to share an update in due course. We are not able to provide anything further at this stage.”

The Mk 5s were withdrawn by TPE at the request of the DfT, due to cost. The sets, which were less than five years old when stood down, have been in warm store at Longsight and Long Marston ever since.

The 14 Class 68s were also stood down, although some have been used for short-term hires to both DRS and Europhoenix.

 

[MatthewHutton]

The 168s would be freed up to run more services - shift some of the stops onto a 168 MYB - BAN and that relieves some of the pressure. I’ve been designing my own “what if”Chiltern timetable based on Mk5s happening and this is what I went for. (That and ordering extra coaches to go behind the current 68s to bolster the fleet to 19 and facilitate services to Worcester and extra peak services)

Hopefully the high Wycombe service gets the 168s as that should allow that to be increased to half hourly.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Hopefully the high Wycombe service gets the 168s as that should allow that to be increased to half hourly.

I’d say using the freed up 168s on Oxfords (7 or 8 single 4 car needed) would free up the 165s for that (4 turns, so up to 8 units). Would probably also free up enough for a West Ruislip stopper (3 units needed for a 2tph service). Also using a few 168s for reintroduction of semi-fast Marylebone - Banbury (3 or 4 3 car needed, plus some /3s to possibly extend some services to Stratford) could be a thing, especially in terms of transferring some calls on the Birmingham and Oxford Routes.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

A post on a Facebook group today:

Chiltern Gen !!

“8 x class 68's have been moved into the MBDL pool for transfer to Chiltern. They are 68020 / 22 / 26 /27 / 28 / 30 / 31 / 32.

Two have already gone to Loughborough to be made ready.

Two mk5 sets are due to go to Chiltern later this month for training with services using them to start in December with a full service starting next year. It is anticipated up to 12 mk5 sets may eventually be transferred in.”

 

[BlueLeanie]

That's good. Plus right now they have a near empty track to play with between Bletchley Upper and Bicester Village for training.

If they're going to take 12 sets, they might as well take them all though?

 

[Meerkat]

A post on a Facebook group today:

So have they found a solution to the noise issues?

 

[BlueLeanie]

So have they found a solution to the noise issues?

Electrification.

Just need funding.

 

[xotGD]

So have they found a solution to the noise issues?

You mean fitting opening windows to the coaching stock so we can hear it better?

 

[Ollie29]

So have they found a solution to the noise issues?

Yes, knocking down all the houses in proximity to any depots and stations so there's no people to complain

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Yes, knocking down all the houses in proximity to any depots and stations so there's no people to complain

Hey would at least make space for more platforms at Marylebone! Of course there’d then be no one to use them but still!

 

[brad465]

So have they found a solution to the noise issues?

They're planning to build a giant vacuum wall lining through the sensitive areas

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Maybe they could make it even louder - People can’t complain if they’re not there to complain

 

[FrodshamJnct]

So have they found a solution to the noise issues?

IIRC there was a trial where something was going to be added to/modified on the 68 to reduce noise. Not sure what came of that trial though.

 

[brad465]

Maybe Chiltern could long term pursue a Class 93 additional order that can be made compatible with Mk5 sets, then combine its delivery with electrification of parts of the route in conjunction with other operators. Ironically they'd have a better chance of electrifying the non-London parts, such as Oxford-Bicester as part of EWR's existing desire, and/or of the West Midland routes out of Moor Street.

 

[Zomboid]

If the mk5s have enough remaining life that it'll be worth buying locos for them when electrification comes along, perhaps. But I suspect that it won't be in the near future, in which case it'll probably make more sense to get new BEMUs when that time comes rather than repower some carriages which might only have another 10 years life with locos intended for 40.

 

[The exile]

If the mk5s have enough remaining life that it'll be worth buying locos for them when electrification comes along, perhaps. But I suspect that it won't be in the near future, in which case it'll probably make more sense to get new BEMUs when that time comes rather than repower some carriages which might only have another 10 years life with locos intended for 40.

Although that is one way of spreading the capital cost.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

rather than repower some carriages which might only have another 10 years life with locos intended for 40.

Isn’t that basically what they were doing when they ordered the 68s?

 

[Zomboid]

Isn’t that basically what they were doing when they ordered the 68s?

They didn't order them though, did they? AIUI DRS ordered them and then they were eventually sub-leased to Chiltern. Their use of the mk3s was only because no suitable DMUs were available, and once they had a fleet it made some sense to extend it. The 68s were just an upgrade on the 67s.

I think the expected end of life for both the 68s and mk5s will be pretty similar.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

They didn't order them though, did they? AIUI DRS ordered them and then they were eventually sub-leased to Chiltern. Their use of the mk3s was only because no suitable DMUs were available, and once they had a fleet it made some sense to extend it. The 68s were just an upgrade on the 67s.

I think the expected end of life for both the 68s and mk5s will be pretty similar.

Fair

 

[43096]

Maybe Chiltern could long term pursue a Class 93 additional order that can be made compatible with Mk5 sets, then combine its delivery with electrification of parts of the route in conjunction with other operators. Ironically they'd have a better chance of electrifying the non-London parts, such as Oxford-Bicester as part of EWR's existing desire, and/or of the West Midland routes out of Moor Street.

Maybe anyone suggesting such uses for 93s needs to go and look at their performance away from the wires.

 

[DM352]

Maybe they could make it even louder - People can’t complain if they’re not there to complain

Free ear plugs for houses that border the line!

To be fair and not to derail this thread, I would rather hear a 68 any day than modified exhaust cars backfiring.

 

[paok]

Vague update from Chiltern here: https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/files/timetables/Chiltern-RRfC-Report Apr25 v9.pdf

We’re on course with our three-stage plan to improve our trains. Stage one is all about refreshing our existing Class 168 and 165 trains. Our 25-year-old diesel Class 168 fleet is undergoing a £12 million refurbishment to include improved Wi-Fi, USB sockets, a full repaint, and an interior refurbishment for all 85 carriages. Chiltern’s 35-year-old Class 165 trains are also due to begin a refresh this year. The second stage of this plan is to bring replacement and additional carriages into service to replace our 47-year-old Mark iii carriages. We are awaiting a final decision from the Department for Transport on this proposal but have seen positive progress so far. The third stage of our plan is to work with the Department for Transport, Network Rail and Great British Railways to introduce battery-hybrid trains, alongside the partial electrification of the Southern part of the Chiltern network.

 

[The Planner]

Vague update from Chiltern here: https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/files/timetables/Chiltern-RRfC-Report Apr25 v9.pdf

I'd take that as a cheeky dig at the DfT from Chiltern myself. Basically saying look how old our fleet it that we are having to refurb whilst you procrastinate over what we do with wires at the southern end and a new fleet.

 

[Harpo]

I'd take that as a cheeky dig at the DfT from Chiltern myself. Basically saying look how old our fleet it that we are having to refurb whilst you procrastinate over what we do with wires at the southern end and a new fleet.

Is there a little less worry about biting the hand that feeds?

 

[The Planner]

Is there a little less worry about biting the hand that feeds?

More than likely, as this one has dragged on.