Potential HS2 services

[Bletchleyite]

If that is true, why doesn’t Liverpool still have XC services, or why was Manc-Brighton curtailed? Why won’t there be a HS2-HS1 link? Why is Liverpool-Norwich being split to Liverpool-Nottingham?

Because approximately half the number of Voyagers needed were actually ordered and they had to retrench to avoid an overcrowding problem well in excess of what it's like now (pre COVID).

 

[Greybeard33]

When HS2a opens but before HS2c gets built, are there any plans for some of the M/c services to run via the Styal loop? If so, the pressure on the line from Cheadle Hulme to Piccadilly via Stockport would be reduced.

No, according to the TSS all three HS2 Manchester services will call at Stockport (one also at Wilmslow).

I would speculate that both the Northern Piccadilly - Crewe services will be routed via Styal (per the Recovery Task Force Option C) to help clear paths between Cheadle Hulme and Wilmslow.

 

[Purple Orange]

Because approximately half the number of Voyagers needed were actually ordered and they had to retrench to avoid an overcrowding problem well in excess of what it's like now (pre COVID).

That plays in to my point. I’d contemplate that a combination of comparatively low passenger demand and operational difficulties made those services unfavourable. So, if we take Manchester-Bournemouth and Newcastle-Reading as an example, given that the market for the end-to-end routes will be depleted, the demand between Birmingham and Manchester & Yorkshire/NE will be reduced on the classic XC services, it could well be the case that the demand for short distance, all stop services may prove to be a more valuable use of available paths.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

So will Birmingham Intl's initial service be only 3tph, all to Curzon St? Is the plan that future East Mid services would also stop there?

 

[Ianno87]

So will Birmingham Intl's initial service be only 3tph, all to Curzon St? Is the plan that future East Mid services would also stop there?

Yes, Birmingham Interchange stops in anything other than Curzon Street services aren't proposed until Phase 2b (when a mix of North West, North East and Curzon Street services will call).

Of course, there's nothing, in theory, to stop an operator calling other services during Phase 2a should they so wish.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Yes, Birmingham Interchange stops in anything other than Curzon Street services aren't proposed until Phase 2b (when a mix of North West, North East and Curzon Street services will call).

Of course, there's nothing, in theory, to stop an operator calling other services during Phase 2a should they so wish.

Thanks! That's a bit of a shame if it does happen as planned - surely there'll be northward demand from Interchange from day 1?

 

[edwin_m]

So will Birmingham Intl's initial service be only 3tph, all to Curzon St? Is the plan that future East Mid services would also stop there?

Thanks! That's a bit of a shame if it does happen as planned - surely there'll be northward demand from Interchange from day 1?

There's currently no firm plan for a Birmingham to East Midlands service but Midlands Connect has proposed one. This might use a possible connection to classic network at Toton or East Midlands Parkway. As such it wouldn't pass through the Birmingham Interchnage. London to East Midlands services could call there.

 

[Hey 3]

No, according to the TSS all three HS2 Manchester services will call at Stockport (one also at Wilmslow).

I would speculate that both the Northern Piccadilly - Crewe services will be routed via Styal (per the Recovery Task Force Option C) to help clear paths between Cheadle Hulme and Wilmslow.

But that would totally clog up the Styal Line(WCML) and simply make services skip-stop, we do not need a repeat of May 2018. Routing via Styal can only be an option when HS2 runs via Manchester Interchange(to free up paths on the Styal Line(WCML).

 

[Purple Orange]

But that would totally clog up the Styal Line(WCML) and simply make services skip-stop, we do not need a repeat of May 2018. Routing via Styal can only be an option when HS2 runs via Manchester Interchange(to free up paths on the Styal Line(WCML).

There aren’t any WCML services to be freed up on the Styal line.

 

[Greybeard33]

But that would totally clog up the Styal Line(WCML) and simply make services skip-stop, we do not need a repeat of May 2018. Routing via Styal can only be an option when HS2 runs via Manchester Interchange(to free up paths on the Styal Line(WCML).

If the Task Force recommendations are implemented, there will be 2tph Piccadilly - Crewe, both calling all stations to the Airport, then Styal, Wilmslow and on to Crewe. The longer distance services to the Airport will all run fast from Piccadilly - none of the present skip-stopping.

The current Piccadilly - Crewe via Stockport service will be cut back to terminate at Alderley Edge. The current Southport - Alderley Edge will be cut back to start at Piccadilly, giving a 2tph Piccadilly - Alderley Edge via Stockport EMU service calling at all stations.

 

[Hey 3]

There aren’t any WCML services to be freed up on the Styal line.

I mean, the Styal line is part if the WCML(for diversions, and was included for wiring as part of BR WCML modernistation)

 

[Envy123]

Will Stafford's fast services to London likely be more, less or nonexistent after HS2 phase 2b?

Just wondering, as I am tempted to buy a house there and like the journey times, but if the service will be worsened in the future, it would not be good for me.

 

[Ianno87]

Will Stafford's fast services to London likely be more, less or nonexistent after HS2 phase 2b?

Just wondering, as I am tempted to buy a house there and like the journey times, but if the service will be worsened in the future, it would not be good for me.

Stafford is proposed to be served by the Macclesfield-Euston HS2 service (which calls at Stoke and Stafford, then joins HS2 south of Stafford).

 

[Envy123]

Stafford is proposed to be served by the Macclesfield-Euston HS2 service (which calls at Stoke and Stafford, then joins HS2 south of Stafford).

Thank you - it even seems like an improvement in terms of journey times.

 

[Hey 3]

Hopefully, sanity prevails and the Macclesfield service is extended to Manchester Piccadilly(High Level) calling at Stockport(to give Stockport a fast service) and if there are paths, one train can go to Manchester Piccadilly(High Level) via Wilmslow and Styal(on occasion) calling at East Didsbury and via Stockport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hopefully, sanity prevails and the Macclesfield service is extended to Manchester Piccadilly(High Level) calling at Stockport(to give Stockport a fast service) and if there are paths, one train can go to Manchester Piccadilly(High Level) via Wilmslow and Styal(on occasion) calling at East Didsbury and via Stockport.

East Didsbury does not justify a London service. Next thing you're going to be suggesting is diverting the Lancaster to London HS2 semifast via Ormskirk or something.

 

[Hey 3]

East Didsbury does not justify a London service. Next thing you're going to be suggesting is diverting the Lancaster to London HS2 semifast via Ormskirk or something.

I said occasional not 1tph+ occasional being for route knowledge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I said occasional not 1tph+ occasional being for route knowledge.

You might want to run that way occasionally to keep up route knowledge, yes, but there is no case for an HS2 service to ever stop at East Didsbury.

 

[HST43257]

For the Manchester area, I’d say:

2tph London to Man Pic calling at Man Airport and Man Pic HS
2tph Birmingham CS to Man Pic HS (and onto NPR) calling at Crewe, Man Airport and Man Pic HS
1tph London to Man Pic calling at Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport and Man Pic NR
1tph London to Huddersfield calling at Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Stalybridge and Huddersfield

I see no reason why Wilmslow should lose its London service, assuming that it’s not kept beyond Phase 2a. Existing services (also like the Huddersfield on the London to Stockport stretch) should be replicated. The pre covid services and flows existed for reasons other than politics (I’d hope).

 

[Hey 3]

For the Manchester area, I’d say:

2tph London to Man Pic calling at Man Airport and Man Pic HS
2tph Birmingham CS to Man Pic HS (and onto NPR) calling at Crewe, Man Airport and Man Pic HS
1tph London to Man Pic calling at Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport and Man Pic NR
1tph London to Huddersfield calling at Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Stalybridge and Huddersfield

I see no reason why Wilmslow should lose its London service, assuming that it’s not kept beyond Phase 2a. Existing services (also like the Huddersfield on the London to Stockport stretch) should be replicated. The pre covid services and flows existed for reasons other than politics (I’d hope).

A very solid pattern.

 

[Purple Orange]

For the Manchester area, I’d say:

2tph London to Man Pic calling at Man Airport and Man Pic HS
2tph Birmingham CS to Man Pic HS (and onto NPR) calling at Crewe, Man Airport and Man Pic HS
1tph London to Man Pic calling at Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport and Man Pic NR
1tph London to Huddersfield calling at Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport, Stalybridge and Huddersfield

I see no reason why Wilmslow should lose its London service, assuming that it’s not kept beyond Phase 2a. Existing services (also like the Huddersfield on the London to Stockport stretch) should be replicated. The pre covid services and flows existed for reasons other than politics (I’d hope).

There is a very good reason why Wilmslow should lose it’s hourly London service. Everybody will be going to Manchester Airport instead. There is even a planned 5 tph tram-train service via Styal, meaning under all circumstances the best option is not to go to Wilmslow.

 

[Hey 3]

There is a very good reason why Wilmslow should lose it’s hourly London service. Everybody will be going to Manchester Airport instead. There is even a planned 5 tph tram-train service via Styal, meaning under all circumstances the best option is not to go to Wilmslow.

Wilmslow is a handy interchange for the south end of the Styal Line(and the rest of it) and it is part of the "Golden Triangle".

 

[Purple Orange]

Wilmslow is a handy interchange for the south end of the Styal Line(and the rest of it) and it is part of the "Golden Triangle".

But why does that mean it should keep a fast London service? The services on the existing Crewe-Stockport-Manchester line post HS2 should be no more than a combination of stoppers and semi-fasts. People will head to Manchester Airport where there are 3 London services taking almost half the time.

 

[edwin_m]

Anyone in Wilmslow who can't get to the Airport station for HS2 can take the local train to Crewe and join it there. Probably still a quicker journey to London than it is today.

 

[HST43257]

Anyone in Wilmslow who can't get to the Airport station for HS2 can take the local train to Crewe and join it there.

I don’t really think many people like the thought of changing where they didn’t before

Probably still a quicker journey to London than it is today.

Is that the point? I see the point as being that it wouldn’t be too hard to add 200m to a Liverpool train as far as Crewe, then send it off limited stop to Manchester

 

[edwin_m]

I don’t really think many people like the thought of changing where they didn’t before

Wilmslow isn't that big a place, but serves as a railhead for the Cheshire affluenti, who can equally drive to the Airport station instead.

Is that the point? I see the point as being that it wouldn’t be too hard to add 200m to a Liverpool train as far as Crewe, then send it off limited stop to Manchester

Nobody would use it between London and Manchester or between Crewe and Manchester because the services running on HS2 throughout would be far quicker. People might use it between London and Crewe but there would be plenty of alternatives if it wasn't there.

So that service would essentially be catering for those Wilmslow passengers who don't transfer to the Airport station, plus Stockport. Unlikely to be worth delaying another train for a split/join, blocking one of the few platforms at Crewe with access to the Manchester line, and taking up a path on what would still be a busy section through Stockport (and if anyone wanted to do that then extending the Macclesfield would make more sense).

 

[Purple Orange]

Post HS2, if like me you start your rail journey at Wilmslow, you would take one of 5 tph with Metrolink to the airport via Styal, then change on to HS2 or NPR. Wilmslow is a small town on the edge of Greater Manchester attached to the concrete jungle. Like many at commuter stations, people will adapt to the better service pattern.

 

[cle]

Post HS2, if like me you start your rail journey at Wilmslow, you would take one of 5 tph with Metrolink to the airport via Styal, then change on to HS2 or NPR. Wilmslow is a small town on the edge of Greater Manchester attached to the concrete jungle. Like many at commuter stations, people will adapt to the better service pattern.

The size of the town is often irrelevant to catchment and usage. Wilmslow, like Macclesfield and so many others, serves a lot more than itself.

And what will you do at 6am when leaving your house? As most high-value London trips will be made crack of dawn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody would use it between London and Manchester or between Crewe and Manchester because the services running on HS2 throughout would be far quicker. People might use it between London and Crewe but there would be plenty of alternatives if it wasn't there.

That's like saying that nobody would use London-Edinburgh via Brum as a through journey when in fact many do. You can price people onto slower services if there is a good reason to do so, though to be fair with 3 x 400m trains per hour to Manchester that's probably not going to be of that much benefit.

And what will you do at 6am when leaving your house? As most high-value London trips will be made crack of dawn.

If you live in Wilmslow, you choose whether you're going to take the Range Rover or the Aston to whichever station gets you there quicker.

 

[Grimsby town]

I know people against HS2 keep using places like Stockport and Wilmslow losing London services as a reason to not build HS2. The fact is though, as others have mentioned, these places are only served because they act as hubs for a range of places. Stockport for example provides rail connections to Altrincham, Hazel Grove, Buxton and the Hope Valley and bus connections to the wider Stockport Borough.

When HS2 is built, its only only 10 minutes extra to travel to Piccadilly and connect there rather than getting off in Stockport. The Marple line already runs to Piccadilly in the east of Stockport Borough and the west of the Borough tends to have bus services to the airport. A tram train service from Stockport to the Airport is also being considered. When you take all that into account, there's little point in stopping London trains in Stockport. Its more sensible running more local services to places like Hazel Grove and Poynton.