Potential Merseyrail expansion beyond Headbolt Lane and/or timetable improvements

[Bletchleyite]

Running through to Wigan would give the stations beyond Headbolt Lane a better service and better connections at Wigan, and allow Northern to truncate the existing Kirkby service at Wallgate.

It also makes more sense to run through to a major population centre than to terminate in the arse end of nowhere for political reasons.

It also enables the simplification of the Wigan-Manchester pattern post-electrification, to 2x EMU to North Western via Bolton and 2x DMU to Southport via Atherton, with no need to run the Kirkby in one of those paths.

 

[Parjon]

Whilst it is seemingly aspirational on an internet discussion forum that a Liverpool to Wigan via Kirkby service into Wigan Wallgate station once again recreates the former part of the Liverpool and Bury Railway, noting the cosy political relationship that exists between the Labour Mayors of Greater Manchester and Greater Scouseland, what exactly has been the last official statement made by the Department of Transport that considered the possibility of this matter and when was it made?

The matter has never been put forward nor considered. The submitted, and rejected, plan was to Skelmersdale. Liverpool long term rail strategy stipulated that Wigan wasn't in scope and would need to be worked up separately if that was wanted.

 

[urbophile]

It should of course be called Simonswood (after Simonswood Hall) on the basis that a classier name attracts.

WAO

And if the service were extended once again southwards from Liverpool to Gateacre, the line would have two termini whose pronunciation confuses outsiders.

 

[dunc695]

Running through to Wigan would give the stations beyond Headbolt Lane a better service and better connections at Wigan, and allow Northern to truncate the existing Kirkby service at Wallgate.

It also makes more sense to run through to a major population centre than to terminate in the arse end of nowhere for political reasons.

I totally agree there. There's a Bay platform at Wallgate that could be used. It would be great to have a direct train into the heart of Liverpool's main shopping area around Central station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I totally agree there. There's a Bay platform at Wallgate that could be used. It would be great to have a direct train into the heart of Liverpool's main shopping area around Central station.

I had to double check if this thread was on the Infrastructure and Stations forum or the Speculative Ideas forum as we appear to be straying into the realms of sheer fantasy with no official actual sanction whatsoever. Not only that matter mentioned above, but Gateacre (and the North Liverpool ExtensionLine?) has had a recent mention on this thread. Before you know it, postings will begin appearing asking for the reopening of the Southport and Cheshire Lines Extension Railway that terminated into Southport Lord Street railway station.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Very unfortunate that this has descended into a bunch of mancophiles decrying why anyone would want faster or better wigan-Liverpool urban services.

To be clear, there is no rejection of wallgate potential opportunities here, only that a) we simply must be paid a price for it and b) that price is very unlikely to be paid by a government that shows no interest in us or our needs. I've no doubt it would be a popular extension otherwise.

There's no Mancophilia going on here, just statements of reality. Namely that few residents of Wigan have much affinity for Liverpool and, somewhat by default, their large urban centre of choice is Manchester. Even the service from North Western via St Helens to Liverpool isn't heavily used outside of Merseyside. That's no criticism of all that Liverpool has to offer, which is plenty of course, but Wiganers are largely disinterested. An improved option via Kirkby might well persuade some to change their mind but would not be welcome if it damages existing links.

The nub of your argument seems to be that Liverpool should have its hinterland extended by way of an extended Merseyrail network but that someone else needs to pay for it. The only way that works is if there is sufficient demand from that supposed additional hinterland to have such additional choice available and to pay the real cost of providing it. We are presently a long way from that point. In the meantime we just need to see the 777s prove themselves on the Headbolt Lane extension.

 

[dvfmlfc]

And I think Bidston to Wrexham is the more likely given that LCR and the Welsh government appear keen to progress, whilst Lancashire County Council seems to just faff.

Entirely agree with the sentiments regarding Lancashire County Council. I engage with a fairly-large organisation in the West Lancashire area with very strong Scouse connections, and the relationship with the council isn't great. I put it down purely to a general disenchancement from the council with anything vaguely Liverpudlian, and that would include LCR, Merseyrail and Merseyside PTE.

 

[childwallblues]

Running through to Wigan would give the stations beyond Headbolt Lane a better service and better connections at Wigan, and allow Northern to truncate the existing Kirkby service at Wallgate.

It also makes more sense to run through to a major population centre than to terminate in the arse end of nowhere for political reasons.

I think that the good people of Northwood would not be pleased to be called the arse end of nowhere by some one down south.
The extension from Kirkby to Headbolt Lane is similar to the one made all those years ago to the North Clydeside electrics from Airdrie to Drumgelloch. Extending the line a short distance to a housing estate. Of course the line beyond Drumgelloch was eventually re-instated to Bathgate enabling through running between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[WAO]

Whether or not there is immediate through running, why on earth was HBL built with such a limiting and expensive plan?

Ormskirk handles the same traffic simply, with only one platform, albeit formerly with a south bay in the 502 era.

HBL could also have had a single, long platform with a south bay (close to where the substation is), giving the extra platform for Merseyrail and allowing through running cheaply, without foot-bridges, lifts etc.

As a chartered engineer, I sometimes feel that if one tasked modern bureaucracy with carrying a plank down a corridor, it would insist on carrying it sideways and demolish and rebuild the corridor (at public expense) to make way.

What have I missed?

WAO

 

[Parjon]

Whether or not there is immediate through running, why on earth was HBL built with such a limiting and expensive plan?

What have I missed?

It was built to handle a 4tph service to Skelmersdale, which the government had privately and publicly indicated it would be supporting. In exchange, Liverpool City Region would invest in experimental concept-proving rolling stock to operate it, reducing the infrastructure outlay to under 300m.

Don't worry, it's only our own funding allocation we've been conned into wasting.

 

[javelin]

It's been stated numerous times on here how unacceptable it would be for Manc-run services to cross into Merseyside. So why are we even discussing Liverpool-run services crossing into Greater Manchester?

 

[Bevan Price]

There's no Mancophilia going on here, just statements of reality. Namely that few residents of Wigan have much affinity for Liverpool and, somewhat by default, their large urban centre of choice is Manchester. Even the service from North Western via St Helens to Liverpool isn't heavily used outside of Merseyside. That's no criticism of all that Liverpool has to offer, which is plenty of course, but Wiganers are largely disinterested. An improved option via Kirkby might well persuade some to change their mind but would not be welcome if it damages existing links.

The nub of your argument seems to be that Liverpool should have its hinterland extended by way of an extended Merseyrail network but that someone else needs to pay for it. The only way that works is if there is sufficient demand from that supposed additional hinterland to have such additional choice available and to pay the real cost of providing it. We are presently a long way from that point. In the meantime we just need to see the 777s prove themselves on the Headbolt Lane extension.

Wigan to Liverpool is adequately served by the route between Wigan North Western & Liverpool Lime St via St.Helens. Whilst some of the "all stations" trains get lowish loadings between Wigan & St. Helens, some of the "fast" Blackpool / Preston / Wigan - Liverpool services get good loadings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's been stated numerous times on here how unacceptable it would be for Manc-run services to cross into Merseyside. So why are we even discussing Liverpool-run services crossing into Greater Manchester?

The reason that's unacceptable is importing Castlefield delays. Running into Wallgate bay would no more do that than running into Hunts X does.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The reason that's unacceptable is importing Castlefield delays. Running into Wallgate bay would no more do that than running into Hunts X does.

Wasn't there an earlier posting, before the thread matter was split into different sections, that stated there was no official plans of the Liverpool-based transport organisations to run the Liverpool to Kirkby service onwards into Wigan Wallgate railway station?

 

[WAO]

None of the Northern cities can easily cope with much more traffic; Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield have two-track bottlenecks, Liverpool has the delicate Link TT that works well if undisturbed. They could increase capacity with longer trains without extra paths but platform length is then an issue.

The TfX's are essentially inward looking and don't really plan co-operatively. The Kirkby - Wigan line therefore doesn't fit. Its real value is connecting the suburbs and townships, rather than end-to-end travel, which those familiar with the area will understand (not DfT of course).

A pity that HBL didn't have a bay each end with a tablet controlled through line. Putting concrete blocks across the trackbed shows the silo mentality of the planners.
WAO

 

[Bletchleyite]

The concrete block is removable and just substitutes for a lift until through operation is needed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The concrete block is removable and just substitutes for a lift until through operation is needed.

I find it hard to reconcile the thought of a lift and a concrete block...

 

[WAO]

The concrete block is removable and just substitutes for a lift until through operation is needed.

But you'd have to factor in an expensive footbridge and lifts, not needed with bay platforms, as at Ormskirk.

WAO

 

[Greybeard33]

But you'd have to factor in an expensive footbridge and lifts, not needed with bay platforms, as at Ormskirk.

WAO

Headbolt Lane, as designed, has a secondary pedestrian entrance from the housing estate on the southern side (see the plan I posted in the other thread). With a through line that would require an expensive footbridge regardless of which side the bay was. The concrete block across the track avoids the cost of the footbridge until through running is really needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you'd have to factor in an expensive footbridge and lifts, not needed with bay platforms, as at Ormskirk.

You would for any through platform(s).

 

[WAO]

I'm mystified as to why a single platform with east and west bays would need a footbridge.

A second, through platform would not be needed unless traffic vastly increased.

WAO

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm mystified as to why a single platform with east and west bays would need a footbridge.

A second, through platform would not be needed unless traffic vastly increased.

Because there is to be an entrance on both sides.

 

[WAO]

Understood. A pity to forgo a better plan, for a pedestrian rear entrance but needs must.

WAO

 

[AMD]

It's got nothing to do with where they nominally are in a political sense (people in Wigan consider themselves Lancastrians, by and large, not Mancunians, just as people in St Helens largely do even though they're nominally in the Merseytravel area) but more where the direct trains go to!

In terms of politics, the effect of concession passes affects passenger numbers, as can be noted by the larger number of pax on the 1009 to Manchester.
I'm not saying that the number going in the Liverpool direction is minimal, but there is a notable difference in flows.

 

[WatcherZero]

There been any movement on the LCR's long term plans of extending the City Line services into the tunnels in the last couple of years? Not really looked at Liverpools aspirations since Co-vid started and obviously governments rowed back a lot on HS2 during the last year and hence many local governments plans to improve local connectivity around hubs.

 

[childwallblues]

I agree with a previous correspondent that the next extension to the Merseyrail system would be the Borderlands line. LCR will be eyeing up the densely populated Deeside area and Merseysides long standing links with North Wales.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree with a previous correspondent that the next extension to the Merseyrail system would be the Borderlands line. LCR will be eyeing up the densely populated Deeside area and Merseysides long standing links with North Wales.

Have Transport for Wales issued any statement in recent times that they are prepared to divest themselves of this particular route?

 

[D821]

Have Transport for Wales issued any statement in recent times that they are prepared to divest themselves of this particular route?

Statements have been issued saying that the LCR authority and TfW are in discussions about the route,though nothing has been promised.

 

[CdBrux]

Statements have been issued saying that the LCR authority and TfW are in discussions about the route,though nothing has been promised.

What was the reason for not having included this line, or at least to Neston, in Merseyrail initially?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was the reason for not having included this line, or at least to Neston, in Merseyrail initially?

I seem to recall it was in the 1970s proposals and it was just a case that things were done as money became available, so a lot of the proposals e.g. West Derby never happened.