Potential options for the proposed high speed line from Manchester towards Leeds

[Austriantrain]

Well the current fast trains would be accounted for (TPE trains), so all that's needed is space for HS2 trains. Although that doesn't account for when more capacity is inevitably needed in the future.

1. Will HS2 trains come in addition to NPR trains? I would have thought more along the lines of 2 tph Birmingham- Manchester - Leeds and 4 tph Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds (in addition to 3 tph London - Manchester). Would there be any capacity for more than 6 fast tph on NPR? I would doubt that if you take into account the two-track sections, the locals and freight.

2. What is the chance of having vastly increased capacity needs in future? HS1 Phase 1 won’t allow more trains from London; NPR want allow more trains without a totally new line to Leeds which will not be coming this century, so all you might have is an additional train from Birmingham or Liverpool.

This is really nothing like Frankfurt, where various lines at both ends have to be bundled into one underground station. In Manchester it is really only two lines which happen to enter into Piccadilly from the same direction. There would not even be a need for conflicting movements.

If a cross-city tunnel would ever be built for mainline rail, it would not be for this, but something toward Victoria or towards Salford Central (and on to Bolton). I would suspect though that a metrolink tunnel would be the preferred option for this.

 

[MattRat]

1. Will HS2 trains come in addition to NPR trains? I would have thought more along the lines of 2 tph Birmingham- Manchester - Leeds and 4 tph Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds (in addition to 3 tph London - Manchester). Would there be any capacity for more than 6 fast tph on NPR? I would doubt that if you take into account the two-track sections, the locals and freight.

2. What is the chance of having vastly increased capacity needs in future? HS1 Phase 1 won’t allow more trains from London; NPR want allow more trains without a totally new line to Leeds which will not be coming this century, so all you might have is an additional train from Birmingham or Liverpool.

This is really nothing like Frankfurt, where various lines at both ends have to be bundled into one underground station. In Manchester it is really only two lines which happen to enter into the city from the same direction. There would not even be a need for conflicting movements.

If a cross-city tunnel would ever be built for mainline rail, it would not be for this, but something toward Victoria or towards Salford Central (and on to Bolton). I would suspect though that a metrolink tunnel would be the preferred option for this.

1) I meant the TPE will be the NPR trains, or at least that was the original plan as far as I'm aware. So really the question will be is there space for HS2 trains post upgrades, as the NPR/TPE trains are already accounted for.
2) Depends on what government we have in the future....

 

[Greybeard33]

The latest official maps from HS2 Ltd, for a 6 platform surface station at Piccadilly with passive provision for the NPR junction towards Leeds, are in the map book for the 2020 Phase 2b Western Leg Design Refinement Consultation. They can be downloaded from

HS2 Phase 2b Western Leg Design Refinement Consultation

The Minister of State for Transport is consulting on 4 proposed refinements to the design of the Western Leg of HS2 Phase 2b.

www.gov.uk

 

[tomuk]

The latest official maps from HS2 Ltd, for a 6 platform surface station at Piccadilly with passive provision for the NPR junction towards Leeds, are in the map book for the 2020 Phase 2b Western Leg Design Refinement Consultation. They can be downloaded from

HS2 Phase 2b Western Leg Design Refinement Consultation

The Minister of State for Transport is consulting on 4 proposed refinements to the design of the Western Leg of HS2 Phase 2b.

www.gov.uk

Yes as I've already posted in post #949

 

[Austriantrain]

1) I meant the TPE will be the NPR trains, or at least that was the original plan as far as I'm aware. So really the question will be is there space for HS2 trains post upgrades, as the NPR/TPE trains are already accounted for.
2) Depends on what government we have in the future....

@ 2)

Not really, I don’t think. Nobody would built another set of HSL infrastructure on the same routes for a very, very, very long time. If there is willingness for more investment into railways, other parts of England will claim their part. And if Manchester ever gets a through underground station, I am willing to bet it will be for S-Bahn and interregional services rather than High-Speed, because apart from what is being built now, there simply isn’t any other useful destination for HSR.

 

[MarkyT]

For those who think a terminal station configuration is incompatible with high throughput, here's an animation of such a design with clever grade separation in the throat to minimise conflicts. I believe something like this is proposed in Manchester. White trains are HS2, blue are NPR. I used to use such designs in Open TTD. A terminal station could be tucked tightly into a city centre location with excellent catchment, whereas a through station in the same place would often require the entire city centre to be demolished to make space for the additional throat junction.

 

[Austriantrain]

In that case it would need to be outside the city centre.

The *two* through Zurich Underground railway stations weren’t, AFAIA, built on any kind of brownfield site or any other unused space, but next to the fully operational and intensively used main station right in the center of the city. The planned Lucerne station will have access tracks under the lake. It can be done. It’s just that it won’t be done if it’s not necessary.

In the Swiss examples, there wouldn’t have been any space on the ground for station expansion, and timetabling and capacity reasons made through stations the only logical choice.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes as I've already posted in post #949

But you did not provide the link. I was reacting to this subsequent post:

I was using the official maps from HS2; if you have a better official source I stand corrected.

 

[tomuk]

1. Will HS2 trains come in addition to NPR trains? I would have thought more along the lines of 2 tph Birmingham- Manchester - Leeds and 4 tph Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds (in addition to 3 tph London - Manchester). Would there be any capacity for more than 6 fast tph on NPR? I would doubt that if you take into account the two-track sections, the locals and freight.

2. What is the chance of having vastly increased capacity needs in future? HS1 Phase 1 won’t allow more trains from London; NPR want allow more trains without a totally new line to Leeds which will not be coming this century, so all you might have is an additional train from Birmingham or Liverpool.

This is really nothing like Frankfurt, where various lines at both ends have to be bundled into one underground station. In Manchester it is really only two lines which happen to enter into Piccadilly from the same direction. There would not even be a need for conflicting movements.

If a cross-city tunnel would ever be built for mainline rail, it would not be for this, but something toward Victoria or towards Salford Central (and on to Bolton). I would suspect though that a metrolink tunnel would be the preferred option for this.

The report says the HS2 line into Manchester via the Airport will have a capacity of 14tph.

In the HS2 full business case Y plan this was planned to be used by
3tph London - Manchester
2tph Birmingham Curzon St - Manchester

So there is 9tph capacity feeding into stated 8tph fast NPR capacity to Leeds. The report also majors on Birmingham's connection to Yorkshire and the NE being via Manchester.
S I would suggest there will be at least
2tph Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds
1tph Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle

 

[Brooke]

This is the current Piccadilly HS2/NPR proposal six platforms and the NPR junction at Tonge St just West of Ardwick Depot.

View attachment 105917

Do we know anything yet about how the new NPR line will get from there to Marsden?

The geography is not exactly conducive to trains travelling quickly on newly-built straight-ish tracks…!

Yet I can’t imagine it’s in tunnels for large parts of the route, because that would presumably be prohibitively expensive.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yet I can’t imagine it’s in tunnels for large parts of the route, because that would presumably be prohibitively expensive.

Check the estimate.

 

[snowball]

This is the current Piccadilly HS2/NPR proposal six platforms and the NPR junction at Tonge St just West of Ardwick Depot.


Do we know anything yet about how the new NPR line will get from there to Marsden?

The geography is not exactly conducive to trains travelling quickly on newly-built straight-ish tracks…!

Yet I can’t imagine it’s in tunnels for large parts of the route, because that would presumably be prohibitively expensive.

I predict it will be nearly all tunnel. About 16 miles from Ashburys to a point between Marsden and Slaithwaite.

 

[javelin]

According to the HS2 docs, at Ardwick it's going up, not down.

Description of the proposed changes
2.92 Passive provision would require the construction of an embankment to the south of the HS2 Manchester Spur across the A665 Midland Street at a height of approximately 4.5m and a box structure approximately 5m high to be constructed across the HS2 main line near Rondin Road
2.93 The future Manchester to Leeds line would cross over the Manchester Spur near Ardwick at a height of approximately 9m.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to the HS2 docs, at Ardwick it's going up, not down.

There's your "on stilts" illustration.
But the question then is what happens to NPR beyond Ardwick.

 

[YorksLad12]

It will depend on the line speed adopted for NPR.
The Micklehurst loop was not remotely built for fast running, being engineered for trans-Pennine freight.
It has also been built on in places.
I imagine something like a 125mph speed profile is desired (or the same as whatever maximum is engineered in the upgrade east of Huddersfield).
Without a new Standedge tunnel you are stuck with the severe curve at the eastern end of the old tunnels, and I imagine the Mardsen location is where the new line will meet the straighter classic alignment towards Huddersfield.

Thinking randomly, with a map in front of me... the new TRU track being built is south of the existing alignment. If you do that west of Huddersfield as well, then you can peel off from Mardsen just where the track curves northwards, into a new tunnel which comes out north of Diggle. After that you're a bit stuffed and would have to use cuttings or tunnels to get through Dobcross, Grasscroft and Ashton-under-Lyne (assuming you want to connect to Guide Bridge but avoid Stalybridge). Potentially four-track from there to Adwick and Piccadilly.

 

[stephen rp]

For those who think a terminal station configuration is incompatible with high throughput, here's an animation of such a design with clever grade separation in the throat to minimise conflicts. I believe something like this is proposed in Manchester. White trains are HS2, blue are NPR. I used to use such designs in Open TTD. A terminal station could be tucked tightly into a city centre location with excellent catchment, whereas a through station in the same place would often require the entire city centre to be demolished to make space for the additional throat junction.

For clever grade separation read hugely expensive grade separation (stilts on stilts?)

 

[MarkyT]

For clever grade separation read hugely expensive grade separation (stilts on stilts?)

But probably rather less expensive and disruptive than either:
1. knocking down much of central Manchester to accommodate an additional throat on the surface for a through station or
2. Attempting an entirely underground construction.
I believe that this functionally is in fact the basic configuration intended to be built, and passively provided for under the initial HS2 Manchester leg if built separately beforehand.

 

[snowball]

According to the HS2 docs, at Ardwick it's going up, not down.

As the HS2 line from Piccadilly High Speed is going down to enter a tunnel, NPR starts by going up in order to cross HS2 as soon as possible. As LNW-GW Joint says, it's what happens next that matters.

 

[JKF]

Precisely this. I fail to see why Leeds-Manc needs more than 6 fast tph anyway. This thirst from people advocating a through station seem to want a metro system for an Intercity network.

To be fair, this has been sold as a ‘crossrail for the north’ so I wouldn‘t blame people for suggesting the same kind of frequency, even if it’s nonsense.

anyway, build it fully underground beneath Piccadilly Gardens. 400m platform, 500m long travellator at the south to Piccadilly, 500m long travellator north to Victoria. All sorted.

 

[D869]

As the HS2 line from Piccadilly High Speed is going down to enter a tunnel, NPR starts by going up in order to cross HS2 as soon as possible. As LNW-GW Joint says, it's what happens next that matters.

My reading is that NPR starts at same height as the existing railway viaducts.

 

[stephen rp]

From the plan posted by Tomuk, it looks like the NPR track in from Leeds would flyover the HS2 exiting the tunnel.

This is the current Piccadilly HS2/NPR proposal six platforms and the NPR junction at Tonge St just West of Ardwick Depot.

View attachment 105917

The narrative posted by Javelin says

Description of the proposed changes
2.92 Passive provision would require the construction of an embankment to the south of the HS2 Manchester Spur across the A665 Midland Street at a height of approximately 4.5m and a box structure approximately 5m high to be constructed across the HS2 main line near Rondin Road
2.93 The future Manchester to Leeds line would cross over the Manchester Spur near Ardwick at a height of approximately 9m.

But I think that should say the Leeds to Manchester line (the opposite direction just leaves on the north side). There's no point having a flyover with lines in both directions.

 

[HSTEd]

Are we honestly at thinking of running HS2/NPR trains through Castlefield?!

Well I can propose that if you want! Although it requires me to channel the railway equivalent of Robert Moses to drive four tracks through Castlefield, then build an enormous new through station on the site of the University of Manchester North Campus.

anyway, build it fully underground beneath Piccadilly Gardens. 400m platform, 500m long travellator at the south to Piccadilly, 500m long travellator north to Victoria. All sorted.

Unfortunately Piccadilly Gardens isn't large enough.

Believe me I've spent an unhealthy amoutn of time trying to fit something like Stuttgart 21 into Manchester.

If it's a choiuce between 200m underground through platforms and a 400m surface station, I will take the 400m solution every day of the week.

It leaves open the door of running trains that long on the Transpennine route in the future, which means that we have functionally infinite capacity compared to the current solution.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Well I was under the impression that this new line would come out just below Rochdale and head into Manchester via Victoria. Which would seem the most logical and obvious, since a new line via Diggle either above or underground will be very expensive and difficult.

Thinking about it now I suspect they will propose a tunnel from Piccadilly curving round northwards, before surfacing just before Moston, running parallel to the existing line to Rochdale before diverging off just before Slattocks, running adjacent to the M62 for a little while before tunneling under the Moor towards Marsden.

 

[javelin]

As the HS2 line from Piccadilly High Speed is going down to enter a tunnel, NPR starts by going up in order to cross HS2 as soon as possible. As LNW-GW Joint says, it's what happens next that matters.

My point was that if there was going to be a tunnel all the way from Piccadilly, then it would have made sense to go into tunnel in the same post-industrial wasteland site near Ardwick as HS2.

The fact it rises to the level of the surrounding railways seems to suggest, for at least for a portion of the route, the idea is to join the line to Guide Bridge.

 

[Bigman]

How about a new tunnel North of Batley to the East of the current Morley tunnel that comes out straight at the North end which would solve the slow PSR through Morley station (which would also create passing loops in the process)?

 

[matacaster]

My point was that if there was going to be a tunnel all the way from Piccadilly, then it would have made sense to go into tunnel in the same post-industrial wasteland site near Ardwick as HS2.

The fact it rises to the level of the surrounding railways seems to suggest, for at least for a portion of the route, the idea is to join the line to Guide Bridge.

... and into tunnel to avoid severe curves at guide bridge and staylybridge.

 

[CdBrux]

I predict it will be nearly all tunnel. About 16 miles from Ashburys to a point between Marsden and Slaithwaite.

I wonder if there is not a way to start the tunnel either just before or after Guide Bridge station. It could imagine that would probably though mean a prolonged closure of that line, or maybe just the stations, to bring it back to 4 tracks. I know some of east Manchester is a former mining area so could also be beneficial is an existing formation could be used over that area

 

[HSTEd]

Honestly my most important consideration now is ensuring the new line is built to GC loading gauge and no silly "value engineering" sticks us with a permanent loading gauge limit.

I honestly expect that the later "HS2 to Leeds: How?" review to come back with an extension from Marsden to Leeds and double deck trains - assuming no one does anything stupid in the meantime.

 

[Greybeard33]

But I think that should say the Leeds to Manchester line (the opposite direction just leaves on the north side). There's no point having a flyover with lines in both directions.

No, it is the eastbound NPR line that will go over the flyover, while the westbound comes in on the north side. The aim is to avoid crossing moves on the flat in the station throat. Eastbound NPR trains will arrive in the platforms on the south side of the station, then depart over the flyover, while westbound trains will use the north side platforms.

The flyover will bridge the Leeds-bound NPR line as well as the HS2 tracks, to uncross the two NPR tracks.

This schematic of the track layout is from Fig.18 of the Bechtel report:

Name Redacted Development of Piccadilly Station Final Report.pdf

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Fig.16 in the same report suggets that the NPR route will follow the existing Ardwick - Guide Bridge alignment up to the point where it is crossed by the Denton - Ashton Moss line, then join that alignment north to Ashton Moss. From there it would cross the Victoria - Stalybridge line and continue north, possibly along the disused alignment towards Oldham, before swinging northeast in the Medlock valley to head towards Marsden. However, this route was taken from an early NPR report and so may be outdated.

 

[CdBrux]

Fig.16 in the same report suggets that the NPR route will follow the existing Ardwick - Guide Bridge alignment up to the point where it is crossed by the Denton - Ashton Moss line, then join that alignment north to Ashton Moss. From there it would cross the Victoria - Stalybridge line and continue north, possibly along the disused alignment towards Oldham, before swinging northeast in the Medlock valley to head towards Marsden. However, this route was taken from an early NPR report and so may be outdated.

I think that report was for Manchester City council though could obviously prove good input to HS2 ltd. I think, not that it necessarily makes a difference, the Denton - Ashtom Moss line is also considered for re=opening to regular passenger traffic and possibly / probably via Metrolink conversion