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Potential options for the proposed high speed line from Manchester towards Leeds

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matacaster

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Pre-Covid 7tph fit through that section. One more with ETCS and 4 tracking between Ravensthorpe and Huddersfield along with grade separation more than facilitates 8tph.
Oh that sounds good, thanks!

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No, yes!



Were talking 10 tph though (post IRP) : 8 fast + 2 stoppers.

That stretch wasn’t the constraint that caused 7tph

No, yes!



Were talking 10 tph though (post IRP) : 8 fast + 2 stoppers.

That stretch wasn’t the constraint that caused 7tph.
Interesting! At what point in time will ETCS be implemented? Will this take place as part of TPU or after new tunnelling for NPR? Will there be a period of mixed ETCS / non-ETCS (if this is possible)
 
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Bald Rick

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Oh that sounds good, thanks!

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Interesting! At what point in time will ETCS be implemented? Will this take place as part of TPU or after new tunnelling for NPR? Will there be a period of mixed ETCS / non-ETCS (if this is possible)

TRU. And yes you can have mixed ETCS / nonETCS (see Thameslink core), although I don’t know what is planned for Transpennine.
 

MattRat

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Whilst a through station isn't going ahead, it maybe possible to build a 400m station.

Yes you may only be able to build a 200m station box under the park, however if you had a larger diameter TBM it could be possible to build platforms within the tunnel to facilitate the extra length. The issue is trying to change the cutting head for a smaller one once you've gone far enough.

Whilst that wouldn't give you lots of width on the platforms within the tunnels you'd almost certainly be able to get more than at tube stations.

If you went large enough with the diameter of the cutting head you could double stack with a metro line. However that would be beyond the scope of anything that most governments would consider let alone fund.
Or you could have a bypass and a split train, splitting at the airport, with half going to Leeds, and half going to Piccadilly.
 

JKF

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Or you could have a bypass and a split train, splitting at the airport, with half going to Leeds, and half going to Piccadilly.
For best utilisation that would rely on there being equal demand for both destinations, which I don’t think there will be. Do you have Manchester passengers in the more lightly loaded Leeds potion bailing out at the airport to then try and cram in the front unit?
 

Purple Orange

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I never quite understand why the idea of a delta junction between Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly often resurfaces. It would only lead to a number of wasted paths and I would anticipate fewer through services from Liverpool to Leeds and Birmingham to Leeds.
 

MattRat

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For best utilisation that would rely on there being equal demand for both destinations, which I don’t think there will be. Do you have Manchester passengers in the more lightly loaded Leeds potion bailing out at the airport to then try and cram in the front unit?
I think the Government will cheap out and build the Piccadilly platforms to only 200m, meaning the alternative to above is a 200m train with both Manchester and Leeds passengers on it.
 

BenBru

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Realise this is an old thread. From memory the TfN Board meeting at the back end of last year was halted because DfT was to publish the Integrated Rail Plan. At the board meeting that was cancelled, there would have been discussion about the NPR route.

Does anyone know whether, since NPR will not be happening as originally planned, there is a document somewhere describing the route that NPR would have taken?

Thanks

Ben
 

Bald Rick

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Does anyone know whether, since NPR will not be happening as originally planned, there is a document somewhere describing the route that NPR would have taken?

NPR is happening as originally planned, as everything before the decision on what is now the (most likely) route was simply options. There were dozens of them.
 

MattRat

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NPR is happening as originally planned, as everything before the decision on what is now the (most likely) route was simply options. There were dozens of them.
You could say the same thing about the Eastern Leg, since the IRP route was one of the options, but no one would believe you.
 

LittleAH

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You could say the same thing about the Eastern Leg, since the IRP route was one of the options, but no one would believe you.
HS2 and NPR are different. Just because Transport for the North didn't get their way doesn't mean doesn't mean it's been cancelled or scaled down. HS2 on the other hand is rather shocking since the NIC, with their distinct lack of railway knowledge, have somehow persuaded the treasury into such a crap decision.
 

507020

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You could say the same thing about the Eastern Leg, since the IRP route was one of the options, but no one would believe you.
NPR is happening as planned between Warrington and Manchester which is the only section which affects the area around Irlam and Glazebrook, as much as there is a need for the rest of it.
 

Purple Orange

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NPR is happening as planned between Warrington and Manchester which is the only section which affects the area around Irlam and Glazebrook, as much as there is a need for the rest of it.

Athough Trans Pennine Route upgrade is now meant to be NPR phase 1, I’d have preferred it if Warrington to Lime Street and Marsden to Leeds were also stated as being NPR phase 3 (phase 2 being Warrington to HS2 and Manchester to Marsden). Really such extensions should not be off the table.
 

quantinghome

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HS2 and NPR are different. Just because Transport for the North didn't get their way doesn't mean doesn't mean it's been cancelled or scaled down. HS2 on the other hand is rather shocking since the NIC, with their distinct lack of railway knowledge, have somehow persuaded the treasury into such a crap decision.
Both HS2 and NPR are bad decisions. NPR doesn't 'feel' as bad because there wasn't a detailed route published. But nevertheless it's a very poor strategic decision to have a new line running to the middle of the Pennines and then kludged into the existing line. The very expensive bit of new line from Manchester to Marsden will be constrained by the bottlenecked section from Marsden to Leeds. It's like stopping the M62 on Saddleworth Moor, connecting it to the A62 and claiming this as an improvement because it saves money and 'connects Huddersfield'.

The NIC is a creature of the Treasury. They haven't persuaded the Treasury to do anything it hadn't already decided to do.
 

Gareth

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NPR is happening as planned between Warrington and Manchester which is the only section which affects the area around Irlam and Glazebrook, as much as there is a need for the rest of it.

Well, I won't live to see it and I'm not that old. I'm not terminally ill either, so far as I know.
 

LittleAH

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Both HS2 and NPR are bad decisions. NPR doesn't 'feel' as bad because there wasn't a detailed route published. But nevertheless it's a very poor strategic decision to have a new line running to the middle of the Pennines and then kludged into the existing line.
Is NPR a bad decision? The reality is any Pennine route doesn't need to be high speed despite what some may say. It needs to be faster than it is. The main speed constrains on the current main transpennine route are mainly from Marsden into Manchester, bar Morley Tunnel heading east. And to make the most time savings, you just need not to go slow. A new bit of track, 100mph plus from somewhere west of Huddersfield into Manchester makes Leeds - Manchester easily 30 mins give or take.

The only place that loses out is Bradford. Maybe they should connect Bradford to Huddersfield via a faster line to give Bradford direct connections to Liverpool and NPR, I'd certainly like to see that, but connecting to the existing and soon to be upgraded route will enable better connections from NPR to other areas, including Wakefield/Castleford etc.

The very expensive bit of new line from Manchester to Marsden will be constrained by the bottlenecked section from Marsden to Leeds.

Will it? At least that section of track will be 3 tracked with TRU I believe, and it may well be 4 tracked. And With Huddersfield to Westtown being 4 tracked, there shouldn't be any bottleneck. Also, realistically how many trains will be running an hour - given TRU's aims are 4 fast, 2 semi-fast, 2 stopper and some freight, you'd imagine with NPR (and the capacity constraints between Dewsbury and Leeds) not much more. Speed is largely the driver.
The NIC is a creature of the Treasury. They haven't persuaded the Treasury to do anything it hadn't already decided to do.
The biggest mistake is actually not building the Eastern leg of HS2. And the lack of detailed thought from the NIC in their report shows that, given their compromise will reduce capacity, which shows the NIC to be useless.
 

Glenn1969

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Is NPR a bad decision? The reality is any Pennine route doesn't need to be high speed despite what some may say. It needs to be faster than it is. The main speed constrains on the current main transpennine route are mainly from Marsden into Manchester, bar Morley Tunnel heading east. And to make the most time savings, you just need not to go slow. A new bit of track, 100mph plus from somewhere west of Huddersfield into Manchester makes Leeds - Manchester easily 30 mins give or take.

The only place that loses out is Bradford. Maybe they should connect Bradford to Huddersfield via a faster line to give Bradford direct connections to Liverpool and NPR, I'd certainly like to see that, but connecting to the existing and soon to be upgraded route will enable better connections from NPR to other areas, including Wakefield/Castleford etc.



Will it? At least that section of track will be 3 tracked with TRU I believe, and it may well be 4 tracked. And With Huddersfield to Westtown being 4 tracked, there shouldn't be any bottleneck. Also, realistically how many trains will be running an hour - given TRU's aims are 4 fast, 2 semi-fast, 2 stopper and some freight, you'd imagine with NPR (and the capacity constraints between Dewsbury and Leeds) not much more. Speed is largely the driver.

The biggest mistake is actually not building the Eastern leg of HS2. And the lack of detailed thought from the NIC in their report shows that, given their compromise will reduce capacity, which shows the NIC to be useless.
They went for the cheapest option and ignored almost entirely any socio-economic benefits. I live on the Calder Valley route. That route is arguably more in need of an upgrade than the Huddersfield route (and Bradford, Calderdale, Rochdale and Oldham boroughs have a bigger catchment population than Kirklees and Tameside) and almost certainly won't get one. Plus Sheffield- Leeds flow is one of the worst in the country for connectivity
 

LittleAH

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They went for the cheapest option and ignored almost entirely any socio-economic benefits. I live on the Calder Valley route. That route is arguably more in need of an upgrade than the Huddersfield route (and Bradford, Calderdale, Rochdale and Oldham boroughs have a bigger catchment population than Kirklees and Tameside) and almost certainly won't get one. Plus Sheffield- Leeds flow is one of the worst in the country for connectivity
This is where I think your bias is coming in around where you live. Rochdale/Oldham boroughs and Calderdale wouldn't benefit directly from NPR going through Bradford, and with Rochdale and Oldham they wouldn't benefit indirectly either, Calderdale maybe but the benefits aren't huge given the locality of Huddersfield. It's a fast line that won't have calls anywhere in said boroughs and ultimately you have to question if the figures RE Bradford are correct as Ilkley would be included and it's just as easy to get to Leeds. And there wasn't ever any guarantee that a via Bradford route would have a city centre station.

The Calder Valley route does need upgrading, but so does the via Diggle route and given the Diggle route is the main line between Leeds and Manchester, then it has to get priority. As for Sheffield - Leeds +, simply the Eastern leg of HS2 needs building properly.
 

quantinghome

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not necessarily
If they were proposing to four-track Marsden-Huddersfield and Westtown-Leeds then I would agree. But there's no indication of that.

Is NPR a bad decision? The reality is any Pennine route doesn't need to be high speed despite what some may say. It needs to be faster than it is. The main speed constrains on the current main transpennine route are mainly from Marsden into Manchester, bar Morley Tunnel heading east. And to make the most time savings, you just need not to go slow. A new bit of track, 100mph plus from somewhere west of Huddersfield into Manchester makes Leeds - Manchester easily 30 mins give or take.
Speed isn't the issue. Trying to run long distance intercity trains on the same tracks as local services is the problem.

The only place that loses out is Bradford. Maybe they should connect Bradford to Huddersfield via a faster line to give Bradford direct connections to Liverpool and NPR, I'd certainly like to see that, but connecting to the existing and soon to be upgraded route will enable better connections from NPR to other areas, including Wakefield/Castleford etc.
Every local station from Marsden to Leeds loses out. Unless long distance trains are removed from that line, either by four-tracking or new build line, there can never be a high frequency local metro service. 2 stoppers an hour is not sufficient - we should be looking at 4-6 trains an hour.

Likewise on the Bradford Interchange route. Bradford losing NPR means the existing line has to continue being a jack of all trades - so no high frequency metro service, no space in the timetable for more local stations.

Will it? At least that section of track will be 3 tracked with TRU I believe, and it may well be 4 tracked. And With Huddersfield to Westtown being 4 tracked, there shouldn't be any bottleneck. Also, realistically how many trains will be running an hour - given TRU's aims are 4 fast, 2 semi-fast, 2 stopper and some freight, you'd imagine with NPR (and the capacity constraints between Dewsbury and Leeds) not much more. Speed is largely the driver.
I keep hearing various things on here about 3 tracking or 4 tracking, but I've yet to see any actual evidence for this in either TRU or NPR plans. The proposals for the tunnels west of Huddersfield indicate it's being kept at two tracks. Westtown-Leeds WILL be a bottleneck, limiting the frequency of local services and forcing flighting into the timetable.

If you look at the Huddersfield line, the size of towns along it would easily demand 4 stoppers and 4 semi-fasts per hour once the long distance demand from Leeds-Manchester is removed.

If the only aspiration for NPR is to have not much more trains per hour than TRU gives, then frankly there's no point.

The biggest mistake is actually not building the Eastern leg of HS2. And the lack of detailed thought from the NIC in their report shows that, given their compromise will reduce capacity, which shows the NIC to be useless.
Agreed. Losing the HS2 eastern leg is probably the bigger mistake.
 

LittleAH

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Speed isn't the issue. Trying to run long distance intercity trains on the same tracks as local services is the problem.
Fundamentally it is, driven by politicians but also to truly take on the motor vehicle. And as intercity services won't be using the same tracks as local services for the vast majority of the route - then it's not really an issue at all. With fast services realistically only sharing a two track railway Dewsbury - Leeds.
Every local station from Marsden to Leeds loses out. Unless long distance trains are removed from that line, either by four-tracking or new build line, there can never be a high frequency local metro service. 2 stoppers an hour is not sufficient - we should be looking at 4-6 trains an hour.
No it doesn't. Four tracking Huddersfield to Westtown largely solves that issue to the east of Huddersfield and to the west, from what I understand that section will be at least three tracked. Even then Slaithwaite and Marsden don't particularly warrant 2tph bar peak times. And I say that having been to Marsden a number of times during the day to walk on Marsden Moor and being the only person boarding/alighting there.
Likewise on the Bradford Interchange route. Bradford losing NPR means the existing line has to continue being a jack of all trades - so no high frequency metro service, no space in the timetable for more local stations.
Bradford never had NPR. What was driven by TfN and Bradford City Council were ideas. Even then, what local stations lose out? Bramley has 3tph, New Pudsey 4tph. Nobody else on the Calder Valley Route would've benefitted from more services with NPR going via Bradford.
I keep hearing various things on here about 3 tracking or 4 tracking, but I've yet to see any actual evidence for this in either TRU or NPR plans. The proposals for the tunnels west of Huddersfield indicate it's being kept at two tracks. Westtown-Leeds WILL be a bottleneck, limiting the frequency of local services and forcing flighting into the timetable.
Because no plans for Huddersfield to Stalybridge as part of TRU or NPR are out there in the public domain. But having spoken to someone working on TRU, 3 tracking looks like its going ahead. Just because there's not 3 tracks leaving from Huddersfield west immediately doesn't mean they won't happen.

Let's also not forget the role of ETCS in all of this which will enable better running of services.
If you look at the Huddersfield line, the size of towns along it would easily demand 4 stoppers and 4 semi-fasts per hour once the long distance demand from Leeds-Manchester is removed.
Really?! Dewsbury is set to have 5tph post TRU, Batley 3tph, Mirfield 4tph. Stalybridge with have 6tph including Northern services terminating. That more than accommodates the current demands and future growth. Most other stations simply don't and never will have the demand for 4 stoppers an hour - and let's not forget the vision for a WY tram system which covers many of those local stations.
If the only aspiration for NPR is to have not much more trains per hour than TRU gives, then frankly there's no point.
Speed, competition with the motor vehicle, freight, prospective Birmingham services, ability to increase local services west of Huddersfield (Burnham has called for 2tph at Mossley/Greenfield and a new line enables the capacity for that. There's plenty of point even if you don't see it.
 

Bald Rick

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They went for the cheapest option and ignored almost entirely any socio-economic benefits.

“They” didn’t. There were cheaper options, including one that was no doubt titled “do nothing”

“They” also didn’t ignore socio-economic benefits. Quite the opposite. I understand (from those that have been involved in the business case) that the proposal has the best socio-economic benefits of all the options and variants considered.
 
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quantinghome

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Fundamentally it is, driven by politicians but also to truly take on the motor vehicle. And as intercity services won't be using the same tracks as local services for the vast majority of the route - then it's not really an issue at all. With fast services realistically only sharing a two track railway Dewsbury - Leeds.
Don't you see how keeping Dewsbury-Leeds as two-track imposes a massive bottleneck? The IRP is talking about at least 8 fast trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester. You can't fit that in with a turn up and go local metro service.

No it doesn't. Four tracking Huddersfield to Westtown largely solves that issue to the east of Huddersfield
It certainly improves things and would allow the proposed TRU timetable. But the IRP plan for 8 fast trains per hour will inevitably mean losing out on local services.

and to the west, from what I understand that section will be at least three tracked. Even then Slaithwaite and Marsden don't particularly warrant 2tph bar peak times. And I say that having been to Marsden a number of times during the day to walk on Marsden Moor and being the only person boarding/alighting there.
Because no plans for Huddersfield to Stalybridge as part of TRU or NPR are out there in the public domain. But having spoken to someone working on TRU, 3 tracking looks like its going ahead. Just because there's not 3 tracks leaving from Huddersfield west immediately doesn't mean they won't happen.
Well, I await the details. But reinstatement of three or four tracks from Marsden to Huddersfield will mean tightening the curves on the route, reducing the linespeed.

Bradford never had NPR. What was driven by TfN and Bradford City Council were ideas. Even then, what local stations lose out? Bramley has 3tph, New Pudsey 4tph. Nobody else on the Calder Valley Route would've benefitted from more services with NPR going via Bradford.
They were serious proposals which the government dismissed with no analysis.

NPR to Bradford would have allowed the Calder Valley route to focus on provide intensive commuter services.

The government's sop to Bradford is electrification from Leeds to Interchange and a fast service with a 12 minute journey time. How are those local station stopping frequencies going to be maintained under that plan? It would leave no space in the timetable for new stations e.g. Armley and Laisterdyke. I doubt anyone involved in writing the IRP has bothered to think about this.

Let's also not forget the role of ETCS in all of this which will enable better running of services.
Magic signalling will not change the fundamental constraints of a mixed-use railway.

Really?! Dewsbury is set to have 5tph post TRU, Batley 3tph, Mirfield 4tph. Stalybridge with have 6tph including Northern services terminating. That more than accommodates the current demands and future growth. Most other stations simply don't and never will have the demand for 4 stoppers an hour - and let's not forget the vision for a WY tram system which covers many of those local stations.
And what will happen to those stopping frequencies post-NPR when we have 8 fast trains per hour from Manchester to Leeds?

WY mass transit is mode-neutral - it considers trams, buses, tram-train and heavy rail. So there's nothing to say that these stations are going to get trams as an alternative to heavy rail. A heavy rail commuter services is the obvious choice as (a) the infrastructure is already in place and (b) heavy rail is much quicker than a tram. If you're interested in taking on the car, that's where the big wins are. I cannot agree that 'most other stations' will never have the demand for 4 tph. The Huddersfield line is an ideal candidate for a high frequency metro service - the Airedale and Wharfedale lines already manage something approaching this and they serve a significantly smaller population. But they can only do that because they don't have capacity eaten up by high speed long distance services.

Speed, competition with the motor vehicle, freight, prospective Birmingham services, ability to increase local services west of Huddersfield (Burnham has called for 2tph at Mossley/Greenfield and a new line enables the capacity for that. There's plenty of point even if you don't see it.
Oh I'm not denying that it will provide some improvements, but those improvements will be inevitably compromised. Something will have to give, and as is always the way, it will be local services, and we will never have a local rail network in WY with the type of turn up and go service that can out-compete the car.
 

Bald Rick

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Don't you see how keeping Dewsbury-Leeds as two-track imposes a massive bottleneck? The IRP is talking about at least 8 fast trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester. You can't fit that in with a turn up and go local metro service.

But NPR is not, and has never been, about providing a turn up and go local metro service. The objective is to provide a fast and frequent service linking Manchester and Leeds.

They were serious proposals which the government dismissed with no analysis.

They absolutely were subject to extensive, detailed analysis.
 

quantinghome

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But NPR is not, and has never been, about providing a turn up and go local metro service. The objective is to provide a fast and frequent service linking Manchester and Leeds.
That's a huge missed opportunity then. It may not be in NPR's remit to define the future services on existing lines, but surely a major benefit of HS2 and NPR (if not the principal benefit) is that you not only have a new line for faster intercity services, but that it also frees up a huge amount of capacity on existing lines for commuter and freight services?

They absolutely were subject to extensive, detailed analysis.
I was incorrect to say there was no analysis. But according to this it was neither extensive nor detailed:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...er-news/norths-rail-plan-would-meant-22873002

Two months after the plan was revealed, government has now published the background document to the IRP.

It reveals no longer-term, detailed economic analysis of potential benefits to the North has been carried out.

Instead it says an ‘early’ assessment had determined that the preferred plan of northern leaders constituted the ‘poorest’ value for money of the options available.

“In making these decisions we have acknowledged…that significant productivity improvements could flow if the major cities of the North and Midlands functioned more like a single economy and individual city regions were supported to fulfil their economic potential,” it says.

“However, given the early stage of scheme development, full analysis of the wider economic impacts of the different options has not been completed…the value for money assessment reflects a limited assessment of impacts on productivity based on reductions in journey times which bring businesses closer together.”

The ‘value for money’ assessment therefore did not take into account the fact that businesses and households may move into areas as a result of new rail lines making them better connected, it says.

"Assessing the scale of these impacts requires the use of complex modelling which was not feasible in the analytical timescales for the IRP, or the level of scheme maturity," says the document.
So the analysis did not consider the wider economic changes resulting in bringing the whole of the M62 corridor together as a single economic unit. But economic rebalancing was the whole point of NPR in the first place! - not just getting between Manchester and Leeds quicker, but by doing so enabling a major improvement the North's economy. If this wasn't considered in the analysis, it's no wonder it concluded the full NPR scheme was poor value for money.
 
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