Potential Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton upgrade

[tomuk]

Wellington is a very busy station - not quite as busy as Telford but it seems hard to justify skipping. I have often wondered about the through lines though - at the moment the speeds are 15mph on the up and 25mph on the down, but the real killer is the approach control signalling that these speeds require. I reckon you might gain a whole minute if they were dropped - but if it was that simple it begs the question as to why it hasn't been done.

Yes Wellington is very busy I suppose if they had built Telford Central sooner in the life of the New Town then its importance may have diminished more. Politically it would be very difficult, but could you argue a more frequent and marginally slower stopper combined with a much faster Shrewsbury and Telford Fast is better overall?

As regards the signalling it was put in in 2002, a relay interlocking originally controlled from a WestCad console in Madeley Junction before being consolidated with rest of the line into WMSC. I assume like a lot of other things it was done with as little change on the ground as possible but it is interesting no further rationalisation was done.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It wasn't 90mph 50 years ago either, the 1972 sectional appendix has it as 70mph Oxley to Shrewsbury.

Well, the LMR reduced the line speed (and maintenance cost) Wolves-Chester to 70mph, in line with the maximum speed of the then DMUs.
Some of the route north of Shrewsbury (about half) has gone back to 90mph, thanks to WG money, but nothing has changed towards Wolverhampton.
A modest increase to 80-85mph (as achieved on the Cambrian and in North Wales) would lift the line from the doldrums.
But then we still have 75 between Wolverhampton and Birmingham (with a couple of 60s round the bends), another unchanged route.
And it's all been expensively resignalled, which should have removed some of the reasons for low line speeds .

 

[The Planner]

Well, the LMR reduced the line speed (and maintenance cost) Wolves-Chester to 70mph, in line with the maximum speed of the then DMUs.
Some of the route north of Shrewsbury (about half) has gone back to 90mph, thanks to WG money, but nothing has changed towards Wolverhampton.
A modest increase to 80-85mph (as achieved on the Cambrian and in North Wales) would lift the line from the doldrums.
But then we still have 75 between Wolverhampton and Birmingham (with a couple of 60s round the bends), another unchanged route.
And it's all been expensively resignalled, which should have removed some of the reasons for low line speeds .

80 would get you even less of a benefit. Wolves Birmingham is stuck as if you sped it up then you just catch the train infront up. To get rid of the 60s on the reverse curves at Albion would not be cheap.

 

[Shrop]

80 would get you even less of a benefit. Wolves Birmingham is stuck as if you sped it up then you just catch the train infront up.

I've taken a lot of stick on this thread, but as an outsider to the rail industry some of the arguments used against me are quite hard to understand. With regard to the present proposals by others, to increase the linespeeds between Shrewsbury and Wolves, I'm not in contact with any of them but at some point it may happen, and if it does then I'd like to be able to better understand the counter arguments.

To which end, since I keep hearing that there's no point in speeding up trains from 70 to 90mph as this will just lead to them catching up other trains more quickly, what is the situation between Rugby and Birmingham where the linespeed is 125mph? Why not reduce this to 70mph in order to stop trains catching each other up, especially since this line is even more congested than Shrewsbury to Wolves? After all, that's what they do on congested motorways, and it seems to be the argument for keeping speeds down between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton ...

 

[The Planner]

I've taken a lot of stick on this thread, but as an outsider to the rail industry some of the arguments used against me are quite hard to understand. With regard to the present proposals by others, to increase the linespeeds between Shrewsbury and Wolves, I'm not in contact with any of them but at some point it may happen, and if it does then I'd like to be able to better understand the counter arguments.

To which end, since I keep hearing that there's no point in speeding up trains from 70 to 90mph as this will just lead to them catching up other trains more quickly, what is the situation between Rugby and Birmingham where the linespeed is 125mph? Why not reduce this to 70mph in order to stop trains catching each other up, especially since this line is even more congested than Shrewsbury to Wolves? After all, that's what they do on congested motorways, and it seems to be the argument for keeping speeds down between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton ...

Because the vast majority of the train service is in the 9 miles from International and New St at 100mph and its signaled appropriately with 3 minute headways, as well as the ability to overtake and terminate at International and Coventry. Its 100/110 from International to Cov and 125mph from Cov to Rugby.

 

[zwk500]

Why not reduce this to 70mph in order to stop trains catching each other up, especially since this line is even more congested than Shrewsbury to Wolves? After all, that's what they do on congested motorways, and it seems to be the argument for keeping speeds down between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton ...

Because traffic between Wolves/Birmingham and London is a smidge heavier than between Telford and the West Mids. Shrewsbury has a population c.70k, Telford c.150k, Wellington 25k. Wolves is 250k, Birmingham c1.1m, London 9m. West Mids-Shrewsbury = ~1.595m total passenger catchment, let's round that to 1.65m including Cosford etc. West Mids to London Total passenger catchment 10.35m. Every minute you save on Birmingham to London is worth 10 you can save on Birmingham to Shrewsbury. Equally, every pound you spend on Birmingham to London is worth 10 spent on Birmingham to Shrewsbury.

(This is obviously a gross oversimplification, the actual traffic is obviously less than the combined populations and the actual GDP is skewed towards Birmingham and London so this oversimplification is actually being sympathetic to Shropshire).

If somebody was to discover an extraordinary amount of money down the back of the sofa, 4-tracking Tipton to Dudley Port may give sufficient space to let faster trains overtake locals on the Stour Valley section. However, the chances of that happening are as remote as they'll ever be. Slightly more reasonably, I wonder if there might be space to add a 3rd line between Wolverhampton and Wolves North Jn to allow Telford line trains to slip into Platform 6 or 1 without conflicting with trains to/from Stafford. The canal bridge would be a big headache, as well as the impact of shuffling the tracks around on the horizontal alignment to release the space.

 

[cle]

One day, a twin bore tunnel from Birmingham NS to Wolves (possibly enlarged - 1-2 extra plaforms but could be bays) might be the only real solve for growth on that corridor, and by virtue the Telford route too.

And the current stretch between them could rise to a much higher metro frequency. With regional services to Liverpool, Manchester, North Wales and others running fast, and some other local and regional services calling all stations - with the odd semi-pattern. S&D loses 'intercity' with this, I note - but Smethwick as interchange is a worthy competitor to the intermediate main stop on this line, and Dudley Port will have the tram soon enough.

But this will no longer be Birmingham's mainline back up to the NW/WCML and so I doubt the investment would ever be worth it.

 

[Bald Rick]

That may be the received wisdom but I maintain that by the time the end of CP8 rolls around lines that aren't underway with decarbonisation will be dead. People will also view diesel emissions in cities as unconscionable. By then road transport will have pretty much ceased using diesel.

Thing is that even today 'no diesel' doesn't automatically equal 'Electrification'. Battery trains already have ranges in the 80-100KM range, in 5 years that will likely have doubled. There is also potential for hydrogen or other alternative fuels to be part of the discussion, although they have their own problems.

Exactly. Electrification of a service does not necessarily need electrification of the infrastructure throughout. This would be a good place for battery trains in future.

10 years is a long time for me to quote and bet you a fiver on it

one of my first posts on this forum was to propose a bet with a 19 year long stop date. 11 years in, and I’m looking forward to the pay off (albeit nobody took me up on it, I think!)


As a regular user of the line, I would certainly welcome the 2 minutes saved between Telford and Wolves by raising the linespeed to 90. However the work is not insignificant, and it would drive a recast of the timetable whole Birmingham - Wolverhampton corridor, and by extension various other routes. Unless of course TfW could be persuaded to terminate their trains at Wolves instead

 

[Shrop]

As a regular user of the line, I would certainly welcome the 2 minutes saved between Telford and Wolves by raising the linespeed to 90. However the work is not insignificant, and it would drive a recast of the timetable whole Birmingham - Wolverhampton corridor, and by extension various other routes. Unless of course TfW could be persuaded to terminate their trains at Wolves instead

Bald Rick you'll doubtless know more than I do about this, but when HS2 opens there will surely be a wholesale re-cast of the Birmingham-Wolves corridor timetable anyway, perhaps before and certainly when HS2 opens to Crewe. Are rail planners already thinking about a significant re-cast of the Shrewsbury line timetable at that stage I wonder?

 

[Bald Rick]

Bald Rick you'll doubtless know more than I do about this, but when HS2 opens there will surely be a wholesale re-cast of the Birmingham-Wolves corridor timetable anyway, perhaps before and certainly when HS2 opens to Crewe. Are rail planners already thinking about a significant re-cast of the Shrewsbury line timetable at that stage I wonder?

oh the planning for HS2 recasts is well underway. There will be several. Won’t affect Birmingham - Wolves too much though.

 

[tomuk]

Because traffic between Wolves/Birmingham and London is a smidge heavier than between Telford and the West Mids. Shrewsbury has a population c.70k, Telford c.150k, Wellington 25k. Wolves is 250k, Birmingham c1.1m, London 9m. West Mids-Shrewsbury = ~1.595m total passenger catchment, let's round that to 1.65m including Cosford etc. West Mids to London Total passenger catchment 10.35m. Every minute you save on Birmingham to London is worth 10 you can save on Birmingham to Shrewsbury. Equally, every pound you spend on Birmingham to London is worth 10 spent on Birmingham to Shrewsbury.

Of course London to Birmingham is a bigger market the point being missed is that the Shrewsbury - Wolves line gets a raw deal compared with virtually all the other radial lines from Birmingham.

Telford is the fifth biggest settlement in the West Midlands and third fastest growing. In Shropshire alone, not Telford, there are 1,000 houses planned for the old Ironbridge PS site, another 1500 around Shifnal and Bridgnoth and the Black Country councils are calling for a further 3,000 houses as 'overspill' for their areas.

Despite having a relatively slow and infrequent service the line is still pulling in higher passenger numbers than other Birmingham branches\stations, the £200m+ Chase Line, Stratford branch of the Snow Hill Lines and even stops on the Cross City. Bromsgrove only sees 7% more passengers than Wellington.

 

[zwk500]

Of course London to Birmingham is a bigger market the point being missed is that the Shrewsbury - Wolves line gets a raw deal compared with virtually all the other radial lines from Birmingham.

I was responding to a comparison directly between the London line and the Shrewsbury line. The post I responded to did not ask about the Cross-City line or Tamworth etc. Something being the 'fifth biggest' tends to mean you'll get a raw deal, because there are 4 other places ahead of you in the queue for investment.

 

[tomuk]

I was responding to a comparison directly between the London line and the Shrewsbury line. The post I responded to did not ask about the Cross-City line or Tamworth etc. Something being the 'fifth biggest' tends to mean you'll get a raw deal, because there are 4 other places ahead of you in the queue for investment.

Yes Birmingham , Coventry, Stoke and Wolverhampton.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course London to Birmingham is a bigger market the point being missed is that the Shrewsbury - Wolves line gets a raw deal compared with virtually all the other radial lines from Birmingham.

Telford is the fifth biggest settlement in the West Midlands and third fastest growing. In Shropshire alone, not Telford, there are 1,000 houses planned for the old Ironbridge PS site, another 1500 around Shifnal and Bridgnoth and the Black Country councils are calling for a further 3,000 houses as 'overspill' for their areas.

Despite having a relatively slow and infrequent service the line is still pulling in higher passenger numbers than other Birmingham branches\stations, the £200m+ Chase Line, Stratford branch of the Snow Hill Lines and even stops on the Cross City. Bromsgrove only sees 7% more passengers than Wellington.

That is all fair comment, but is not in itself an argument for reducing journey times from Telford to Birmingham by 2 minutes. What it does make an argument for is increasing the frequency of the stopping service, at least for the Telford stations and Shifnal. (Shifnal has more than doubled in sized in the last 15 years; it’s one of the few places I know of which regularly has shops and pubs opening on the high street).

Of course this happened in 2019 - all too briefly - and covid intervened.

There is also a political element - all the other radial lines into Birmingham predominantly serve stations in the administrative West Midlands. The Shrewsbury line doesn’t.

 

[tomuk]

That is all fair comment, but is not in itself an argument for reducing journey times from Telford to Birmingham by 2 minutes. What it does make an argument for is increasing the frequency of the stopping service, at least for the Telford stations and Shifnal. (Shifnal has more than doubled in sized in the last 15 years; it’s one of the few places I know of which regularly has shops and pubs opening on the high street).

Of course this happened in 2019 - all too briefly - and covid intervened.

There is also a political element - all the other radial lines into Birmingham predominantly serve stations in the administrative West Midlands. The Shrewsbury line doesn’t.

Midlands Connect are suggesting 11 mins for the Shrewsbury to Brum run, 45 instead of 56. I assume this is the full fat scheme including electrification.

On the political element it does look like this is one of a few Midlands Connect schemes that are some scraps to placate the shire counties.

But that points at a tangential personal bugbear of mine the lack of consistent devolution in England.

 

[Bald Rick]

Midlands Connect are suggesting 11 mins for the Shrewsbury to Brum run, 45 instead of 56. I assume this is the full fat scheme including electrification.

that means not stopping anywhere except Wolves. Probably not popular.

 

[6Gman]

One day, a twin bore tunnel from Birmingham NS to Wolves (possibly enlarged - 1-2 extra plaforms but could be bays) might be the only real solve for growth on that corridor, and by virtue the Telford route too.

And the current stretch between them could rise to a much higher metro frequency. With regional services to Liverpool, Manchester, North Wales and others running fast, and some other local and regional services calling all stations - with the odd semi-pattern. S&D loses 'intercity' with this, I note - but Smethwick as interchange is a worthy competitor to the intermediate main stop on this line, and Dudley Port will have the tram soon enough.

But this will no longer be Birmingham's mainline back up to the NW/WCML and so I doubt the investment would ever be worth it.

I have long been of the view (slightly tongue in cheek) that the first section of HS2 to be built should be Wolverhampton to Birmingham.

 

[tomuk]

that means not stopping anywhere except Wolves. Probably not popular.

No the proposal doesn't suggest the removal of any stops.

 

[The Planner]

No the proposal doesn't suggest the removal of any stops.

Then as I have said before, I don't see how its possible and they need to show their workings as I agree with @Bald Rick and its disingenuous. The quickest Shrewsbury to New St now is a TfW at 56 minutes with Wellington, Telford, Wolves and Smethwick stops. 90mph is already known to get you about 2½ minutes. Electrification arguably 2 from acceleration at station stops. You still need to find 6½ or 7 minutes. Where is that coming from if it isn't stations? This just points to a Shrewsbury - Wolves - New St flyer which will just be a token service.

 

[Bald Rick]

No the proposal doesn't suggest the removal of any stops.

Ah, in which case all we need to do is find a way to bend the laws of physics.

 

[tomuk]

Then as I have said before, I don't see how its possible and they need to show their workings as I agree with @Bald Rick and its disingenuous. The quickest Shrewsbury to New St now is a TfW at 56 minutes with Wellington, Telford, Wolves and Smethwick stops. 90mph is already known to get you about 2½ minutes. Electrification arguably 2 from acceleration at station stops. You still need to find 6½ or 7 minutes. Where is that coming from if it isn't stations? This just points to a Shrewsbury - Wolves - New St flyer which will just be a token service.

Ah, in which case all we need to do is find a way to bend the laws of physics.

Well Midlands Connect are asking for £15m and eventually £140m to bend the laws of physics. Maybe we should get them to look at nuclear fusion too

 

[Starmill]

There's one service from Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton that runs non-stop. It takes 32 minutes (including 1 minute of engineering allowance).

It's simply not a useful idea though because Telford Central is too busy not to stop at.

 

[Shrop]

There's one service from Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton that runs non-stop. It takes 32 minutes (including 1 minute of engineering allowance).

Are you sure about that? If so then what time does it run?

oh the planning for HS2 recasts is well underway. There will be several.

Okay, so many contributors have argued that speeding up services by a couple of minutes risks them catching up services in front. Could I ask for some clarification? Obviously the xx.44 out of Wolves stopping only at Telford and Wellington risks catching up the xx.19 all stations stopper, however what's to stop the xx.19 leaving less than 35 minutes behind the faster train?

While I would expect my suggestion to be countered with comment about other pathings having effects that aren't obvious, surely the post HS2 recasts are already considering this option? Along with the "what-if" scenario of increasing the linespeed to 90mph?

 

[The Planner]

Are you sure about that? If so then what time does it run?


Okay, so many contributors have argued that speeding up services by a couple of minutes risks them catching up services in front. Could I ask for some clarification? Obviously the xx.44 out of Wolves stopping only at Telford and Wellington risks catching up the xx.19 all stations stopper, however what's to stop the xx.19 leaving less than 35 minutes behind the faster train?

While I would expect my suggestion to be countered with comment about other pathings having effects that aren't obvious, surely the post HS2 recasts are already considering this option? Along with the "what-if" scenario of increasing the linespeed to 90mph?

They will be considering the Shrewsbury services, but not the 90mph as it isnt a committed scheme.

 

[Starmill]

Are you sure about that? If so then what time does it run?

Yes, 2120 on Sundays.

 

[Shrop]

Ah thanks, that explains it, the first appearance of the train is on page 48 of a 52 page timetable so it was a bit tricky to find. Still, I'm sure there must be good operational reasons to miss out Telford (and Wellington) on this train and have 21.20 on a Sunday evening as the fastest service of the week.

 

[The Planner]

Ah thanks, that explains it, the first appearance of the train is on page 48 of a 52 page timetable so it was a bit tricky to find. Still, I'm sure there must be good operational reasons to miss out Telford (and Wellington) on this train and have 21.20 on a Sunday evening as the fastest service of the week.

Its return working at 2240 from international runs fast as well. Probably to beat engineering blocks.

 

[Shrop]

Its return working at 2240 from international runs fast as well. Probably to beat engineering blocks.

I wonder why this train needs to run fast to beat engineering blocks when the only section to that could possibly be affected is Shrewsbury to Chester (via Crewe). When so much emphasis has been placed on the importance of stopping all trains at Telford (and Wellington), it seems incongruous just to save a handful of minutes between Shrewsbury and Chester after midnight.

 

[Undiscovered]

I wonder why this train needs to run fast to beat engineering blocks when the only section to that could possibly be affected is Shrewsbury to Chester (via Crewe). When so much emphasis has been placed on the importance of stopping all trains at Telford (and Wellington), it seems incongruous just to save a handful of minutes between Shrewsbury and Chester after midnight.

It's the only one to go direct to Chester, via Crewe, so I'd speculate it's a route knowledge/retention issue.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder why this train needs to run fast to beat engineering blocks when the only section to that could possibly be affected is Shrewsbury to Chester (via Crewe). When so much emphasis has been placed on the importance of stopping all trains at Telford (and Wellington), it seems incongruous just to save a handful of minutes between Shrewsbury and Chester after midnight.

There's another fast train less than 15 minutes behind from Shrewsbury which does serve Wellington and Telford Central.